Italian carcaro

[Deadeyejedi]

My nephew just picked up an Italian carcaro( hope I’m spelling it right) and we don’t know much about it other than having a difficult time finding the ammo for it . Not sure how to decode the numbers on it to figure out how old it is. It’s also missing it’s magazine . I believe it shoots 6.5x52 but could be wrong . Any first hand knowledge would be appreciated. Thank you

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

My nephew just picked up an Italian carcaro( hope I’m spelling it right) and we don’t know much about it other than having a difficult time finding the ammo for it . Not sure how to decode the numbers on it to figure out how old it is. It’s also missing it’s magazine . I believe it shoots 6.5x52 but could be wrong . Any first hand knowledge would be appreciated. Thank you

First off and easiest to address is that it does not use a magazine but rather a clip to hold and insert the ammunition.

At the end of the clip's cycle, it drops through the bottom.

Ammunition and clips are currently difficult to source in general but there are two major caliber differences as well. So, you will need to know the particular caliber.

Model types constitute an epic range of guns. A photo or two will go a long way. Must be of the particular gun as memory-scrolling through photos on the internet is almost useless with these as so many models are very.... very similar in appearance to the untrained eye. As an example; some length differences are fractions of an inch between decidedly different models.

Todd.

 

[Deadeyejedi]

I have some pics I’ll try to insert

 

[Deadeyejedi]

I didn’t get a chance to measure the barrel but the oal is 36 inches I’m told

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Carcano.
Most were 6.5x52mm aka 6.5 Italian or 6.5 Carcano.

In 1938 the Italians introduced 7.35x51mm with the Model 38 short rifle. WWII started before the change over in caliber could be accomplished and they reverted back to 6.5mm for new M38 short rifles and M41 rifles. Most of the 7.35mm Carcanos were sent to Finland for use by non-combat or second-line forces.

The Carcano carbines with 17" barrels and attached folding bayonet (as in the photos) are most likely to be 6.5x52mm.

I believe all 7.35x51mm Italian rifles were Model 38s, but after WWII started in 1939 in Europe most Model 38 rifles were produced in the standard issue 6.5mm caliber.

 

[Jim Watson]

That is the common folding bayonet Carcano carbine. It looks complete and original except Bubba applied tiger stripe camouflage with a blowtorch or shoe polish.

 

[CapnMac]

Check out Ian at Forgotten Weapons on YouTube, he had a recent series on all of the Carcano rifles in their various iterations. He gives some excellent ways to distinguish between them all, too.
So, that rear fixed sight was a wartime simplification, which can help fix the date.
Which war is a question. I want to remember, from Ian, that Fascist copies have 1936 or some similar date on the ring--but that memory could be flawed.
As above, I'll suspect that's 6.5carcano, and you need the Mannlicher clip to shoot more than one round at a time.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

By the photos, I'm thinking you have a Cavalleria 91/38 in 6.5x52.

Todd.

 

[Jim Watson]

The 943-XXI is the date of manufacture both ways, AD September 1943 and the year of the Fascist regime starting in 1922.

Cal 6.5 is clearly marked, and despite the Usual Internet Warning, there isn't much it could be rechambered to.

 

[DocRock]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/carcano-expert.877026/

The Carcano has an ill deserved reputation as a poor rifle. That has been earned by virtue of the fact that many of those imported to the US were very poorly treated mix-masters combined wit the decision of the Italians to use a 6.7mm (.268) grove diameter rather than a6.5 mm (.264) groove diameter.

The Carcano was an innovative design at the turn of the 19th Century and a brilliantly simple design for an infantry rifle. Unlike other contemporary designs, it was never updated for spritzer cartridges, so the very long, round nosed 162 grs bullet, that delivers penetration and damage far beyond that expected of its paltry 2250 fps muzzle velocity, remained in service through WWII. Don’t forget that it was one of these long, RN bullets, that did for President Kennedy and tore up Gov Connally.

Luckily, PPU loads ammo with correctly sized bullets. If your nephew can clean it up and get rid of the ghastly tiger striping, with PPU ammo or correct component hand loads, he may have a shooter.

 

[Deadeyejedi]

Thanks for some very good info he might sell it to me for 200.00. On that tiger stripe camo I can only wonder if that may have done by the infantry man that carried it during his downtime in the war ! Would make for a good story . I do agree they would have to go if I owned it

 

[DocRock]

Thanks for some very good info he might sell it to me for 200.00. On that tiger stripe camo I can only wonder if that may have done by the infantry man that carried it during his downtime in the war ! Would make for a good story . I do agree they would have to go if I owned it

Which war? That rifle could have seen continued service in any one or more of East African post-Colonial spats, from Djibouti independence to Eritrean-Ethiopian conflict to service with militias in the Sudan and Somalia. God only knows.

 

[Deadeyejedi]

The more I try to find ammo and clips I’m not sure it’s worth paying 200 for . There’s no point in owning it if I can’t shoot it .

 

[Jim Watson]

Lots of places sell clips but 6.5 is affected by the ammunition drought like everything else.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

In recent years I found both clips and factory ammo for 6.5 Italian at gun shows. Prices crept up on clips (limited production).
The current ammo drought I think will pass.

I have a Carcano clip marked SMI 952 with five rounds of military ammo also marked SMI 952 and a clip marked SMI 953.
Societa Metallurgica Italiano (Italian Metallurgical Corporation) operated 1911-2006 manufacturing ammunition for the Italian military.
Italy use a date stamp dropping the thousands digit: 952 is 1952 year of manufacture.

 

[Deadeyejedi]

Does anyone know a way I can test the firing pin without ammo for this gun ?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Does anyone know a way I can test the firing pin without ammo for this gun ?

Take your bolt out. Here is one up-side down.


Grab the tail of the bolt on opposite sides. Where pointed to and opposing side. Rotate 90 degrees to the left.


You want the part next pointed to...

... to be in this pointed to portion of the bolt body.

It will then appear such:


This will present the firing pin at full protrusion.


Todd.

 

[Deadeyejedi]

Thank you for the pics it was a big help . Everything seems to be in good working order . If only there were bullets available

 

[Deadeyejedi]

I ended up buying this rifle for 150 I think that’s a good price the action works well and the bore is in great shape .anybody with any ideas to find a couple boxes of bullets to try it out? I’ll check the for sale section

 

[BigAlShooter]

I have had luck signing up on different websites for ammo availability. Aim Surplus had some in stock last week. I just got an email from Target Sports for this ammo on Tuesday, but I just checked and it is sold out.
I bought some clips off Ebay. It seems, in the last year, everyone has bought one of these rifles and there are only limited amounts of ammo and clips.

 

[Archie]

PPU makes ammunition for it. As with most everything else, getting it to an outlet near you is the problem. The devices holding the ammo are know as 'en bloc loading devices' (the M1 Garand works on the same principle except 'we' put a spring so it pops out on the last round rather than fall through the bottom). The 6.5x52mm cartridge is not what would be considered a monster, but it will do for most of the game in North America. (Perhaps not the large bears that might eat one.) Accuracy ranges from most gratifying to wretched, depending on barrel condition. Get as close as possible in any event.

 

[BillTell]

I used to own a Carcano back in the 80's when I first started collecting guns. My knowledge of them was limited to them supposedly having inferior bolt lugs, which sometimes failed during WWII, causing the bolt lugs to "sheer" (?) and the bolt would come flying backwards, taking out part of someone's face. They were inferior to the Mausers, which vented gases downward into the magazine, thus defrosting frozen rounds in winter. Carcano's supposedly vented the gases rearward. My ACTUAL EXPERIENCE was that I obtained some ammo, went shooting, had a cartridge blowout, and wound up with brass shards in my eye which were removed by a surgeon. I immediately sold the gun, and never entertained the thought of getting another.

 

[Jim Watson]

That's scary. I have seen shooters with faces peppered by all sorts of guns, though. Usually around the edge of their glasses.

As far as inferior bolts go, P.O. Ackley said they were adequately strong for the issue ammo and he blew up a lot of rifles.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I have a Carcano Model 38 made at Terni Arsenal 1940 under Beretta supervision.

The bolt has a gas relief hole that vents into the receiver's right bolt lug channel.

The 1891 Carcano design does not handle pierced primers as well as the 1898 Mauser design. It is especially not friendly to left handed shooters.

The bolt handle and safety flange might deflect most of the gas away from a right handed shooter's face, but I only shoot mine with eye protection.

The club range mandates safety glasses anyway.




I stuck a Qtip in the bolt vent hole to show direction

 

[Carl N. Brown]

My current 6.5 Carcano ammo types

6.5 Italian issue head stamped SMI 952 (came in a clip stamped SMI 952)
6.5 Carcano military clone ammo (160gr FMJ from obsolete ammo vendor)
Both of the above have an odd depressed ring in the cartridge head
.264" 140gr spire point (from my crappy reloads, Norma brass)
.268" 160gr round nose (from my crappy handloads, Graf brass for .268")

MY observations
_ The Italian SMI 952 bullets, like the hundreds of pulled Italian military bullets I have used over the years, are somewhere between .264" and .268" in diameter. Same with the clone ammo.
_ Reload Norma cases with .264" bullets only, cramming a .268" bullet in the thicker Norma case neck, not a good idea.
_ Reload Graf cases with .268" bullets only, a .264" bullet will be a loose fit in the thinner Graf case neck.
_ I see no difference in accuracy between .264" 160gr bullet in Norma cases and .268" 160gr bullet in Graf cases in my 1940 made Carcano.
_ My results with bullets lighter than 140gr have been bad. My best results have been with 160gr bullets.