Hatchett
Member
Does anyone know where I can find a picture of an Ithaca 37 Trench gun? Can anyone tell me if such a thing even existed? Did they use Ithacas with the ventilated handguard in WW2?
Ithaca trench gun?
- Thread starter Hatchett
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Mike Irwin
Member
I THINK that the Ithaca was used mainly in Vietnam. To the best of my knowledge the US military didn't use any as combat guns.
Most Ithacas that were used were for training purposes, mainly aerial gunners.
Most Ithacas that were used were for training purposes, mainly aerial gunners.
Abominable No-Man
Member
The U.S. military used Ithacas for a looong time, from WWI up through Vietnam.
As far as combat use goes....that's iffy, depending on what account you read. In the main-line infantry units they didn't see a whole lot of use unless they were in the jungle in the pacific or in Vietnam.
The MP's used them, airfield security, special forces/SEALS (BTW, I'm mostly referring to the Vietnam era here), river patrol units and so forth. Some guys had them more as a prestige thing than anything else. I know that my dad used an Ithaca 37 and a Remington 870 in Vietnam.
They were made in (correct me if I'm wrong here) an 18" barrelled version and a 20" barrelled version. The 18" was the 5-shot riot gun, and it didn't have a heat shield. The 20" barrelled version was the 6-shot trench gun and it had the heat shield and bayonet mount combination attachment on it.
I remember reading somewhere one time that during WWI, the Germans complained that the trench shotguns were too effective and threatened to execute any U.S. soldier captured with one.
Anyone else got any info on this one?
ANM
As far as combat use goes....that's iffy, depending on what account you read. In the main-line infantry units they didn't see a whole lot of use unless they were in the jungle in the pacific or in Vietnam.
The MP's used them, airfield security, special forces/SEALS (BTW, I'm mostly referring to the Vietnam era here), river patrol units and so forth. Some guys had them more as a prestige thing than anything else. I know that my dad used an Ithaca 37 and a Remington 870 in Vietnam.
They were made in (correct me if I'm wrong here) an 18" barrelled version and a 20" barrelled version. The 18" was the 5-shot riot gun, and it didn't have a heat shield. The 20" barrelled version was the 6-shot trench gun and it had the heat shield and bayonet mount combination attachment on it.
I remember reading somewhere one time that during WWI, the Germans complained that the trench shotguns were too effective and threatened to execute any U.S. soldier captured with one.
Anyone else got any info on this one?
ANM
Mike Irwin
Member
I just realize that I screwed up my initial post. I meant to say that the military didn't use Ithaca shotguns as combat weapons until Vietnam.
"The U.S. military used Ithacas for a looong time, from WWI up through Vietnam."
The only problem with that is that Ithaca didn't start making pump shotguns until the late 1930s, and as far as I know, no Ithacas were used as combat shotguns until Vietnam.
A posting by Bruce Canfield in the Military Trenchgun Forum at Jouster.com makes it appear that the first military combat Ithaca guns were from a Navy contract around 1967.
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/milshotgun/shotgun.pl?read=5149
Some more information on Ithaca pump guns in military service...
http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/ITHACA_Model 37_Shotgun.htm
"The U.S. military used Ithacas for a looong time, from WWI up through Vietnam."
The only problem with that is that Ithaca didn't start making pump shotguns until the late 1930s, and as far as I know, no Ithacas were used as combat shotguns until Vietnam.
A posting by Bruce Canfield in the Military Trenchgun Forum at Jouster.com makes it appear that the first military combat Ithaca guns were from a Navy contract around 1967.
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/milshotgun/shotgun.pl?read=5149
Some more information on Ithaca pump guns in military service...
http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/ITHACA_Model 37_Shotgun.htm
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
A recent on American Shooter, FWIW, showed an Ithaca 37 as used in WWII for the Pacific Theatre. Obtained hurriedly,it had a blue finish and an added heatshield and bayonet lug. Later ones were Parkerized.
In his book, "Shotguns" Elmer Keith wrote of testing myriad shotguns sent overseas for MPs, prisoner escort, sentry duty,etc. These were most of the repeaters made at the time, including A-5s, 12s, 97s, 11s, 31s, and the Savage autos and pumps.
Like other shotguns, Ithacas show up in hot zones. Obtained outside the regular logistics channels, these are often highly prized civilian weapons.
In his book, "Shotguns" Elmer Keith wrote of testing myriad shotguns sent overseas for MPs, prisoner escort, sentry duty,etc. These were most of the repeaters made at the time, including A-5s, 12s, 97s, 11s, 31s, and the Savage autos and pumps.
Like other shotguns, Ithacas show up in hot zones. Obtained outside the regular logistics channels, these are often highly prized civilian weapons.
Jagermeister
Moderator In Memoriam
Jagermeister
Moderator In Memoriam
Abominable No-Man
Member
Mike-
Huh. Guess you do learn something new every day. I always thought the Ithaca had been around longer than that.
I'll have to do a search for the story I was referring to, but I think you are mistaken about the shotguns during WWI. The Germans cited the Hague Convention agreements about the use of non-expanding ammunition when they protested the use of shotguns by the Americans and said that shotguns were "inhumane"- even though they were spraying mustard gas over half of Europe at the same time. I guess the Germans argument was rejected, but the US recalled the shotguns anyway.
Maybe they were the Winchester 97's I was thinking of. The Army used Winchester and Remington shotguns (1897's and either model 10's or model 12's- don't remember which....). I seem to remember something about brass-cased shells with an unusual crimp to them, too.
ANM
Huh. Guess you do learn something new every day. I always thought the Ithaca had been around longer than that.
I'll have to do a search for the story I was referring to, but I think you are mistaken about the shotguns during WWI. The Germans cited the Hague Convention agreements about the use of non-expanding ammunition when they protested the use of shotguns by the Americans and said that shotguns were "inhumane"- even though they were spraying mustard gas over half of Europe at the same time. I guess the Germans argument was rejected, but the US recalled the shotguns anyway.
Maybe they were the Winchester 97's I was thinking of. The Army used Winchester and Remington shotguns (1897's and either model 10's or model 12's- don't remember which....). I seem to remember something about brass-cased shells with an unusual crimp to them, too.
ANM
Hatchett
Member
Thanks guys. And thank you Jagermeister for the picture. That was exactly what I was looking for.
Mike Irwin
Member
Abom,
Yes, the AEF used many shotguns during World War I, but not Ithacas.
They were the Winchester Model 97s, and possibly Model 12s, as well.
I don't believe that any repeating shotguns made it into combat use in WW I.
Yah know, I think I'll just e-mail Bruce. If anyone knows for certain, it will be him, but I can't find ANY references to Ithaca shotguns in a Trench configuration being used in combat in WW II.
Yes, the AEF used many shotguns during World War I, but not Ithacas.
They were the Winchester Model 97s, and possibly Model 12s, as well.
I don't believe that any repeating shotguns made it into combat use in WW I.
Yah know, I think I'll just e-mail Bruce. If anyone knows for certain, it will be him, but I can't find ANY references to Ithaca shotguns in a Trench configuration being used in combat in WW II.
Mike Irwin
Member
Jager,
Now that I can see your photo (damn the security settings on my company's network!) that is VERY interesting information! Only 1,400 of them made... I wonder if any ever saw combat in WW II. Given those numbers, I'd have to say no simply from a logistics standpoint.
Now that I can see your photo (damn the security settings on my company's network!) that is VERY interesting information! Only 1,400 of them made... I wonder if any ever saw combat in WW II. Given those numbers, I'd have to say no simply from a logistics standpoint.
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