Ithaca's once again producing "Riot Guns"

[Skofnung]

I've had 2 37s since I was a teenager, and I've only slam fired them once each, just to see if I could. I'm not rich enough to waste ammo.

I've never considered the slam fire ability of the 37 to be a feature. Nor do I consider it a drawback. It just is.

 

[Audie]

I have never slammed fired my M12, nor do I intend too...it is just an originality question. It is like Colt's recent repros of the 1911...if they put a type 80 slide in it, I would not have bought it....it is just a matter of keeping a classic design, classic...nothing more.

I think the slam fire feature is might be useful in a military context for laying down a lot of lead in a SHTF situation, but that was not my point....I would like to see a repro in as original a design as possible. Including materials and workmanship....although we know that won't happen....if you want one like they made them 60 years ago, you have to buy a 60 year old gun.

 

[Black_Talon]

I would like to see a repro in as original a design as possible.

Then you'd also want it made for 2-3/4" shells instead of 3" shells. Going from the original 2-3/4" guns to 3" guns required a redesign of the entire receiver, as well as the hammer, slide, carrier, firing pin, forend tube and forend wood.

Including materials and workmanship....although we know that won't happen....if you want one like they made them 60 years ago, you have to buy a 60 year old gun.

I'd suggest that the new Ithacas will be built to more exacting tolerances (CAD/CAM vs. virtually "hand-made") and with better quality steel than the earlier M37s.

 

[Audie]

I find that really hard to believe....the old manufacturing techniques were superior to those today. Today it would cost too much to build them like they used to. I have not seen any gun made today that can be compared qualtity wise to those made 60 years ago. IMHO.

 

[Prophet-O-Doom]

PRICE, PRICE, PRICE . . . . does anyone know the PRICE they are selling their Model 37 roit guns for?????

 

[c_yeager]

I find that really hard to believe....the old manufacturing techniques were superior to those today. Today it would cost too much to build them like they used to. I have not seen any gun made today that can be compared qualtity wise to those made 60 years ago. IMHO.

Kinda depends on how you define quality. Guns are generally more reliable and accurate today than they have ever been before, of course they are definatly not as pretty as they used to be, and we cheaping out on the quality of certain compenents, which results in guns that probably wont last as long as they used to.

 

[Audie]

Well, this is what I mean. Winchester stopped making the model 12 in the 60's because it was too expensive to make. Stamped metal parts, cast parts, plastic...I am sure there are a lot of very well made guns today that will outlast their owners. But trading craftsmanship for mass production usually means an inferior product.

I too would like to know the price of those Ithacas...the website says to call....anyone call yet?

those Ithacas aren't quite as pretty as the winchester 12's, but they are close...would love to have a trench version. but I'd buy that gun...after I read a few reviews about quality.

 

[greg531mi]

I find that really hard to believe....the old manufacturing techniques were superior to those today. Today it would cost too much to build them like they used to. I have not seen any gun made today that can be compared qualtity wise to those made 60 years ago. IMHO.

Machining is beter than the old days. With CNC machines, they can go faster and more acurate with carbide cutters, they can go through harder and better steel.
What is lacking today, is the fit and finish, having wide tolerances, and not fiting and hand polishing the parts. That takes time and money and a expert, who has twenty thirty years on the job. Also, not many buffers and polishers out there with real skills any more.....It takes skill to hand polish metal for a polished blue finish, and years of practice, that's why all this matte blue is around, cheaper to do, and hides a lot.

 

[Audie]

Greg, I think you said it best....craftsmanship takes too much time, and costs too much money. Just good enough tends to be the modern way.

 

[Black_Talon]

Machining is beter than the old days. With CNC machines, they can go faster and more acurate with carbide cutters, they can go through harder and better steel.
What is lacking today, is the fit and finish, having wide tolerances, and not fiting and hand polishing the parts.

The same CNC process that lets them go faster and more accurate also lets them make parts with much closer tolerances, and much better surface finish, right out of the CNC machine. Tighter tolerances greatly eliminate the need for hand fitting, and better surface finish greatly eliminates the need for secondary operations to clean up/final polish the finished parts.

 

[Prophet-O-Doom]

Unbelievable, over a dozen "senior members" think enough of this topic to give us their wisdom, but no one wants to list the price.

Well, I contacted Ithica and they are selling the Model 37 riot guns for $650.00+ depending on any special work you want on it . . . .

 

[Gunner23]

Audie, I do agree with you to a certain extent. They don't make things like they used to, especially guns. I'm only 23; I haven't seen too many examples of the better vintage firearms. However, I am a machinist...and Talon has a good point. I can say with absolute certainty that the machining systems we have today, as well as the far-superior metals, are AMAZING. There are things that I still can't even fully comprehend in the machining world.

What we are lacking though, are those men with 30 years of gunsmithing experiance. IMHO, you really do lose something in the transfer when you don't have that hand fitting and polishing, making everything fit together perfectly. It goes beyond tolerances and what you see on the blueprint...it's the actual FEEL of the gun. Can't really explain it better than that...sorry if that's a little cryptic, but I think most of you catch my drift. We might have the better steel and the better tooling, but we don't have too much of the old-school skill required to make modern guns really special. That kind of treatment seems to be a rarity these days, which is why you see such a high price tag on anything thats truly "built by hand". Economical guns are cheap for a reason. Sure they function just fine and will likely outlast their owners if cared for properly, but they don't have the feel of a hand built vintage gun.

 

[Audie]

I think today, people would not pay the price for that kind of craftsmanship.
I am new to shotguns, so I really can't comment to much about them, but I do own all the modern 1911 clones. None of them come close to my 1918 and 1943 Colts. Not even Colt's new repro.

I really look forward to reading a review of this Ithaca repro. Now we have a price, next, someone needs to get one.

 

[bowfin]

I agree totally with Black Talon on the superiority of CNC machining.

I used to have to hold tolerances on machined parts (as close as .0002") on conventional "old style" machines, and did the same on CNC machines. It was a stressful adventure on the first group, I (or you, if it was set up and you can push a button) could do it with boring regularity on the CNCs, and the finish using coated carbide inserts and TiCN inserts wasn't even close. Neither was the economics. I once had to do the same job using conventional tooling and a Haas CNC milling center with the appropriate cutting tools. The first way took nine minutes and thirty seconds per profile, the second took one minute, ten seconds. Surface finish was between 125 and 250 with the non CNC machine, it was about 62 with the CNC.

CNCs are also able to do mix and match directions of cutting in all directions (is plural of axis axes?), so one can cut radii (curves), angles, steps, and all sorts of odd shapes on parts that used to take a special step or steps with a special tool.

The only thing CNCs can't do is care about the final product. That still takes a human to care enough to keep his parts in tolerance and not throw a bad one in the pile to make rate or keep his numbers up, regardless of what machine he is running.

If you don't already know it, the advent of CNC machining has revolutionized the gun industry, same as electricity and the invention of steel.

 

[ryoushi]

Well, I contacted Ithica and they are selling the Model 37 riot guns for $650.00+ depending on any special work you want on it . . . .

Thanks for the price check. A brand new, walnut stocked 870 Police goes for what, $450? And the new Ithaca's weigh a bit more than those old 37s we all love. So there you have it. Still...a M37 Riot Gun with a back bored IC barrel would be sweet indeed.

 

[Coronach]

(is plural of axis axes?)

Yep.

Here is a question. If a guy wanted to start up his own little gun-making bidness, how much would a basic CNC setup cost? Not one of the huge machines like the Remchesters use, but something that would enable a gunsmith to take advantage of the advances in CNC. I'm aware that the more advanced machines might be able to make multiple cuts in the same run, whereas basic machine might require multiple runs to get the same effect.

Still, how much? And while this is a little bit of thread veer, a discussion of this will help show mow much Ithaca, et al, have to pay in startup costs before they even produce a single gun for sale.

And the new Ithaca's weigh a bit more than those old 37s we all love.

They do? Why?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[ryoushi]

And the new Ithaca's weigh a bit more than those old 37s we all love.
They do? Why?

Thanks,

Mike

(Black Talon) Going from the original 2-3/4" guns to 3" guns required a redesign of the entire receiver, as well as the hammer, slide, carrier, firing pin, forend tube and forend wood.

 

[Coronach]

Hmm.

I wonder how much has changed? As in, were the necessary parts just redimensioned, or is the action a whole new design?

Thanks, I missed the bit about going from 2 3/4" to 3"...that would explain the extra weight.

Mike

 

[Black_Talon]

Hmm.

I wonder how much has changed? As in, were the necessary parts just redimensioned, or is the action a whole new design?

Mostly the parts were just redimensioned to make up for the 1/4" longer action. The design is exactly the same as it's always been.

Thanks, I missed the bit about going from 2 3/4" to 3"...that would explain the extra weight.

I'm sure that accounts for most of the 1/2 pound of additional weight, although the hammer is a bit longer (thicker?) as well.

 

[KarbineKrazy]

this makes me excited!!!

I am an ithaca nut.
I have 4 model 37s and looks like I need to buy one more.

I have an early '50s waterfowl model that was chopped down to 18.5 inches and fitted w/ a pistol grip
a '60s DS police gun w/ some rugged looking rifle sights on a choke tubed 20 inch barrel.
an early '70s deluxe M37 w/ a 28 in Full choke barrel and a 28 inch modified barrel
not sure of the year but a 3 inch magnum model!!! I just picked it up.
All are 12 gauges, gotta get some pics up for you guys.

I really want a full mag tube model w/ a walnut stock(3 inch mag would be nice too)

I would like to put together an M37 w/ a 22-24 inch barrel(w/ tubes) and a straight english stock.

So, I guess I need two more ithaca's...

 

[Wags]

Well, I contacted Ithica and they are selling the Model 37 riot guns for $650.00+ depending on any special work you want on it . . . .

It would be cheaper for me to buy a new 18.5" barrel from Sharps Gun Supply in Canada and have Les Hovencamp at Diamond Gunsmithing fit it on my 12ga 2 3/4" Mod 37 manufactured in 1957 shipping included. I was thinking this new Riot model would be in the market of lets say $550 or less considering this is a no frills model. I do wish these new guys luck with Ithaca Gun, but come on.......... $650+?

 

[ajkurp]

One downside

..to the bottom eject is that the select-a-slug maneuver can not be done as it can with Mossberg 500 series and 870s. That can be a serious tactical liability.

BTW- Norinco makes a decent Model 37 clone that can be had under $200. Andersoncorner.com in Idaho has them for $146.

 

[greg531mi]

I think today, people would not pay the price for that kind of craftsmanship

Why do you think gun owners buy a Les Bair for $1600, when they could have got a Springfield for a lot less?

I bought a Chinese 37 riot gun around here for $99 at Dunhams, when they have their specials....and am happy with it. Of course, it is not a real 37, but a good house gun.....

 

[Audie]

I would, you might, but many won't...else they would be more popular. Most folks would rather buy a springer for much less money.

Like it or not, we do not live in a society that values craftsmanship. Mass production, miniturization....order of the day. If the gun lasts for the warranty period, good enough...It was different in the not so different past. Technology and economics has changed manufacturing forever.

Nothing made today (at reasonable prices) feels like an "old" gun.