It's 1940, what's your CCW?

[labnoti]

I was recently reading about Benjamin Siegel, the organized crime figure known for his role in Murder, Inc. and recognized as the one who ushered in the mob-era of Las Vegas when he took over the project to build the Flamingo Hotel and Casino, the first casino on the strip and the first ritzy joint in Vegas intended to lure the elite from Hollywood and around the world. This fella was cut down at a home in Hollywood by a sniper with an M1 carbine in 1947. He would have fit the "1940" era, and he definitely would have carried concealed, although it's not clear how often. I'm sure there were plenty of times later in life that he had bodyguards and hired muscle and nothing on himself that he could be harassed for, but he built his reputation earlier in his life by his ready willingness to get his own hands dirty.

In a museum exhibit that displayed some of his personal belongings, was a S&W K-frame, .38 Special with a 4" barrel. A picture can easily be found by searching for "Bugsy Siegel gun." Now frankly, a lot of the history about guys like this is BS. The newspapers of the day printed sensationalist crap, and later Hollywood would glamorize fictional characters that barely resembled reality, and the fantasy would become an ingrained part of American culture that few people would bother to question. There's a fair chance the gun wasn't even his, and if it was, it might just as well been a gift from someone that he kept in a presentation box that could have been found among the momentos of anyone with the kind of vast wealth he had. Of course, because of his background and reputation (yeah, he was one of those unscrupulous characters that most probably broke some laws during Prohibition), I can imagine people's imaginations running wild, believing this was the gun he used to murder the cappo di tutti capi Salvatore Maranzano.

It seems pretty evident that Siegel toward the end of his life was very determined to have an image of wealth and legitimacy. The idea of him toting around a big revolver like some kind of gunslinger seems improbable, even if that's what Hollywood would have you to believe.

 

[Ironhand54]

Depends on what I could get my hands on.

For summer - Walther PPK or Mauser HSc. Preferably in 380.

Under a coat [and most men wore a coat back then] - 4" S&W in 44-40 or Colt Super 38.

IronHand

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Depends on what I could get my hands on.

For summer - Walther PPK or Mauser HSc. Preferably in 380.

Under a coat [and most men wore a coat back then] - 4" S&W in 44-40 or Colt Super 38.

IronHand

Pretty sure the .380 HSc came along postwar, but fair enough.

 

[Ironhand54]

Pretty sure the .380 HSc came along postwar, but fair enough.

Looks like you are right. The HSc was originally a 32acp. Guess I would just have to find a Remington R-51.

IronHand

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Looks like you are right. The HSc was originally a 32acp. Guess I would just have to find a Remington R-51.

IronHand

Mine has never failed me.....

.....but it's a Model 51, lol. The "R" is the modern version.

 

[Mn Fats]

1911.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

My wife's Grandfather carried a 32 Colt.
It's a bit worn and beat up but we still have it.

 

[Riomouse911]

PPk in 9mm Kurz

 

[peacemaker45]

A 1911, "most of the time," and a 1908 Vest Pocket, all of the time. That's my pattern nowadays, except with a P32 in place of the Vest Pocket.

 

[drobs]

Just to annoy the Safety Experts here. In addition to the M1917 revolvers I previously mentioned. I'd also carry. - a 1911 carried on 1/2 cock. That was the thing to do back then before we knew better. Right?

 

[1911 guy]

1911. I'd just have to get used to no beavertail safeties.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

And as I stated previously, $9 was a lot of money for the men who were enlisting for $21 per month.

Let's look at the base price of two of the top-end handguns of 1940. A Colt Commercial 1911 cost $27.50. S&W's pre-Model 27 Magnums cost about $60.

June 10th, 1922-September 30th, 1940 E-1 pay was $21.00 a month. U.S. Dollars, paid in cash.

If you followed orders, stayed out of trouble, and learned your job well, you could advance to E-3 or E-4 within 18 months. An E-3 got paid $54 a month.

But back to the E-1 pay example.

E-1 "over 4 months" Base pay went to $30 October 1st, 1940. All that came out of that, (assuming a member of the Navy) was about $2 a month for uniform upkeep and 20 CENTS a month for health insurance, and the cost of anything you bought from the ship's service.

It cost nothing to live in the crew berthing and eat aboard ship. You would have nearly $20 clear money in your pocket every month. Try to find a civilian job that paid you that much.

So we're talking you would MAYBE have to save for three months. A member of the Army, Navy, or Marine Corps, if he was single (and if they wanted you to have a wife, you would have gotten one with your sea-bag) and careful with his money, could afford the most expensive firearms of the time period, if he wanted them.

 

[RedlegRick]

Let's look at the base price of two of the top-end handguns of 1940. A Colt Commercial 1911 cost $27.50. S&W's pre-Model 27 Magnums cost about $60.

June 10th, 1922-September 30th, 1940 E-1 pay was $21.00 a month. U.S. Dollars, paid in cash.

If you followed orders, stayed out of trouble, and learned your job well, you could advance to E-3 or E-4 within 18 months. An E-3 got paid $54 a month.

But back to the E-1 pay example.

E-1 "over 4 months" Base pay went to $30 October 1st, 1940. All that came out of that, (assuming a member of the Navy) was about $2 a month for uniform upkeep and 20 CENTS a month for health insurance, and the cost of anything you bought from the ship's service.

It cost nothing to live in the crew berthing and eat aboard ship. You would have nearly $20 clear money in your pocket every month. Try to find a civilian job that paid you that much.

So we're talking you would MAYBE have to save for three months. A member of the Army, Navy, or Marine Corps, if he was single (and if they wanted you to have a wife, you would have gotten one with your sea-bag) and careful with his money, could afford the most expensive firearms of the time period, if he wanted them.

Well, I can't really comment on the state of mind of an E-1 through 4 back in those days, but when I was in, my main concerns after duty gravitated more towards beer and girls, and I suspect theirs were too. Add to that regulations of the time forbade enlisted men from possessing handguns (those were reserved for officers and gentlemen) and there could be a problem with that.

I say this because I got to meet a couple of my late uncle's Army buddies, and learned one guy got caught with a pistol he'd brought from home. In a combat zone, fighting Nazis in Europe, yet he still got court-martialled and busted one rank. Maybe his CO was a jerk, but the story sounded plausible the way it was recounted to me.

 

[Sistema1927]

We have a tendency to impose our values and experience on that older generation, not realizing that many, if not most, of them had just come through a crippling depression where scarcity was the norm and survival was the priority. I am old enough that I knew many of these men in my younger days. Many of them never got over it.

My paternal grandfather was one of them. He died a millionaire at age 100, but was only able to acquire wealth because he never spent a penny that he didn't need to. This extended to putting my grandmother in the cheapest nursing home for her final years, as well as eating food long past its expiration date.

I can promise you that if he had bought a pistol in 1940 it would not have been a Government model, or a 1908, or a Walther, or anything else high end. It would have been the cheapest option available, in line with his mind set and world view. He never recovered, mentally, from the Depression.

He may have had disposable income, but he never saw it that way.

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

A colt pocket hamerless in .380.

Or a Smith and Wesson model 10 with a 2 inch barrel with wadcutters and a switchblade.

If I had to go into combat, I probably would have a Browning Hi-power after it was worked over by a good gunsmith and with some new in box magazines

Actually interesting note, Hitler actually carried a .38 special S&W Ladysmith until America declared war and then carried a PPK. Evidently he had a holster sewn into the breast pocket to work as a quasi shoulder holster and evidently until fairly recently Eastern Bloc staff officers and generals carried like this.

Also Yasser Arafat and Herman Goring were both big fans of the S&W K frame and carried those regularly

 

[22250Rem]

If money was an issue both Iver Johnson (their 1900) and Harrington and Richardson (their models 4 and 5) were available in .32 S&W , 32 S&W Long and .38 S&W for less than $9 from Stoeger in 1939.

Same deal from Stoeger in 1940, as pictured here. As long as the barrel was less than 6 inches; a 6 inch barrel's over nine bucks. But this backs up what I put in a previous post about how money was still tight in 1940 and even though the economy was getting much better most folks were still hesitant to spend too much of their precious money. Hence my theory that the big sellers were probably from companies like H & R and Iver Johnson. I saw a bunch of stuff like that back in the 60's thru the 80's as beat up family hand me downs from older family members who had owned them pre-WWII circa 1940 or so. Still know a 75 year old guy with an old Iver Johnson (forgot the model) that had belonged to an uncle back in those days. It's pretty worn and that was typical of a lot of those cheaper guns which is why you don't see all that many today. But I'd wager that circa 1940 they were more common than stuff like Colts and Smith & Wessons and other higher priced guns. ..... ETA....... ( How'd that picture get in twice ???)

 

[Texas1880]

Model 27 3.5” 357 mag probably.

Or a colt detective special.

 

[Sarge7402]

View attachment 789150Same deal from Stoeger in 1940, as pictured here. As long as the barrel was less than 6 inches; a 6 inch barrel's over nine bucks. But this backs up what I put in a previous post about how money was still tight in 1940 and even though the economy was getting much better most folks were still hesitant to spend too much of their precious money. Hence my theory that the big sellers were probably from companies like H & R and Iver Johnson. I saw a bunch of stuff like that back in the 60's thru the 80's as beat up family hand me downs from older family members who had owned them pre-WWII circa 1940 or so. Still know a 75 year old guy with an old Iver Johnson (forgot the model) that had belonged to an uncle back in those days. It's pretty worn and that was typical of a lot of those cheaper guns which is why you don't see all that many today. But I'd wager that circa 1940 they were more common than stuff like Colts and Smith & Wessons and other higher priced guns.View attachment 789150 ..... ETA....... ( How'd that picture get in twice ???)

Fund my Hudson Sporting Goods Catalog No 37a (it's 32 pages) and it lists Used Iver Johnson Safety Automatic Revolvers (with the exposed hammer or hammerless) in Grade No. 3 for $4.95 in .38 and .32 S&W.Grade 3 Police Positives (.38 S&W and .32 S&W Long) ran $13.85. 38 Special Colts with a four inch barrel ran $16.85. Will see if I can copy the pages and post

 

[Sarge7402]

Hope these give you all an Idea of what the prices were in 1937 for used guns

 

[Fast Frank]

Yeah, I'm spoiled.
I can have any gun I want. The internet means I can find it pretty easy, and even if I have to sell some other toys to get it There really isn't any reasonable limit on what I can have. By "Reasonable" I mean normal stuff. Saddam's Solid Gold AK is probably beyond my means but normal production guns I can do. Revolver? Auto? No problem.

This is a place here where I live, and what I have available any time I want to walk in. http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/

So, when I think about 1940 I assume that would be the deal back then too. Except I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that.

I don't think there were big gun shows back then. There was no internet. There were probably gun stores but I bet there wasn't a choice of gun stores for most people. Pawn shops too.

I'm betting that for most people there was one place within their normal reach where you could just walk in and buy a gun. Think about a town like Mayberry. Most of America lived like that back then. Sure, Big City selection was better but nowhere near like it is now.

So now I'm restricted to what happens to be sitting there for sale at a single store, or whatever somebody I know might have for sale.

Yeah, I'll tell you that I would like this or that but most likely I would have a choice of just a few guns and I would have to decide what one I could afford.

That would be what I would have and carry.

 

[Sarge7402]

In one of Skeeter Skelton's articles he wrote about mustering out of the USMC in 1946 and cruising the City of Chicago looking for a Colt SAA (had his mustering out pay - he'd been in China from 45 - 46) and all he could find was a 7 1/2 in barreled 32-20.

 

[Ironhand54]

They didn't have the internet but they could mail order what ever they wanted.

IronHand

 

[tactikel]

A Forehand and Wadsworth .38 S&W 5 shot top break. I still have it.

 

[mdauben]

When I'm wearing my trench coat, I'd carry a Webley Mk IV revolver in .455 Webley.



If I was just wearing my business suit, it would be a Colt Hammerless in .380 ACP.

 

[labnoti]

I'm curious to know what was civilian availability of the 1911 from it's introduction up to the US involvement in WWII? It was primarily a military weapon designed and produced for the US armed forces, but what was civilian adoption like through most of the first half of the century? How about criminal adoption? It seems like it wasn't featured much at all in Prohibition and subsequent organized crime violence, where double-action revolvers and the Thompson submachine gun for example were featured heavily. Were there even civilian sales of the 1911 in the US prior to the end of WWII? I imagine after the war, the civilian adoption of it was robust, but before?