You were just saving paper. I do it all the time.Sounds fun!
How someone shoots is also dependent upon the mechanics of the gun, itself. Not, mind you, that this means the gun is at fault. Rather that how well a person shoots any particular gun may legitimately depend on how that particular gun is designed.
Personal case-in-point:
When I bought my Beretta 92FS about 30 years ago, I gleefully went to the range with several hundred rounds anticipating a few hours of fun target shooting.
Well, while shooting IS fun, I found out that not being able to hit the target worth squat was frustrating and not fun at all.
I could nail the target consistently at point of aim with my AMT II and my Colt 1991A1 no problem. My Beretta? Nada. Looked more like I shot the targets with a shotgun when I was done, as I was all over the place. I was honestly wondering if there was something wrong with my Beretta.
Finally, I pulled up a stool, knuckled down at the bench, set up an impromptu bench rest, and carefully, slowly, and patiently did some bench rest shooting. I concentrated on keeping my sight picture as perfect as possible while ever so slowly squeezing the trigger.
And I started nailing my target dead center with groupings tight enough to touch each other.
So...it wasn't really my brand new pistol...it was me. But WHY?
Obviously it wasn't because I couldn't shoot a pistol. I did quite well with my AMT and Colt.
So I took careful stock of my new pistol to see what was mechanically different that would account for this.
And it was the trigger.
My AMT and Colt have triggers that pull straight back, parallel with the slide. The Beretta's trigger, however, pivoted instead of sliding straight back.
To the novice, this may sound like something silly. But everybody who does any kind of shooting (at least, those who have learned to hit the target) knows that trigger control is essential to shooting well. You don't "jerk" the trigger, you "squeeze" it. You don't "anticipate" the shot, the shot comes as a "surprise".
What this meant was I needed to learn better trigger control/discipline. Once I realized this, I was, quite literally, "back on target" with my shooting.
So I've come to believe that there are three major reasons why people don't shoot well:
1. They haven't learned to shoot properly.
2. They're shooting something different and haven't quite accounted for the difference(s).
3. The gun has a problem.
These are in order of most to least problems, with number 1 leading the others by a wide margin, and number 3 lagging the others by just as wide a margin.
It's not the gun - it's you
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You were just saving paper. I do it all the time.
pharmer
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And some people are just that good. Back in 1988 I took the day long "course" for my CWP. 4hrs classroom, 4 hrs range. The instructor (USMC ret WWII,Korea, VietNam vet) had us load 1 round into each of 12 revolvers on the line. Targets out 50 ft, he walked calmly picking up each revolver and clicking off until it fired. Took all of 5 minutes. Pulling the targets back each had a neat hole in the center of the head. Deadpan: "Now that we know the guns don't miss......". I never forgot that. Joe
Reminds me of a little episode I encountered on our indoor range when I was volunteering my days to a friend who had moved his gun shop from his farm site and bought a building in town. He put in a 25 yard pistol range. I did various odd jobs for him. One day a guy came in and talked about purchasing a 1911. We happen to have a Taurus 1911 as a rental on our range so he rented it and proceeded to shoot the gun at about 10 yards. As I passed behind him in the range he stopped me, as he was having difficulty shooting. His target had a loose grouping of holes that were low and left of the black. He asked whether it might be the gun not shooting straight. I told him that may well be a problem as some people who rent the guns will at times change the sights.
I asked him if he would allow me to fire 3 of his rounds to see where the gun shot for me.
He agreed, and stepped aside as I shot the three rounds near dead center in the black with all three holes going into a single cluster .
He proceeded to get visibly angry and started packing his stuff up. I asked him what was wrong ? He pointed to the target and said you put all your shots in the bullseye making a single hole. I told him I had been shooting 1911's for some time, and this was only his first time. I told him he would get better with a little coaching and practice. He wasn't having it. He packed up and left. It was the last time I seen him in the shop. Made me wish I would have scattered my 3 shots into his grouping, He didn't purchase a gun from us or come back to the range. I always wondered if I did the wrong thing.
I asked him if he would allow me to fire 3 of his rounds to see where the gun shot for me.
He agreed, and stepped aside as I shot the three rounds near dead center in the black with all three holes going into a single cluster .
He proceeded to get visibly angry and started packing his stuff up. I asked him what was wrong ? He pointed to the target and said you put all your shots in the bullseye making a single hole. I told him I had been shooting 1911's for some time, and this was only his first time. I told him he would get better with a little coaching and practice. He wasn't having it. He packed up and left. It was the last time I seen him in the shop. Made me wish I would have scattered my 3 shots into his grouping, He didn't purchase a gun from us or come back to the range. I always wondered if I did the wrong thing.
My old man's got a glock 23 from the 80's. I can't hit anything with it no matter how hard I try or how close I stand. He can mag dump it and get head sized groups at 25 yards so it ain't the gun. I've also heard people say that a snub nose is a belly gun for bad breath distances. Mine shoots fist sized groups at 25 yards. Nobody is that fat or has teeth that rotten. Everybody has off days where they can't shoot for some reason not that they will admit it. Just gotta pack it up and try again next week. You always get your groove back. Might take longer if you angrily dump all your ammo trying to figure it out when it's a caffeine/blood pressure/sleep issue and not a firearms fundamentals issue though.
You certainly did nothing wrong.
A while back I acquired a WWII P.38. I was fascinated by it , but struggled to put rounds on target at moderate distances. One day I was shooting with a friend who had life long shooting experience. ( I was pretty green...) He had never shot a P.38 before ; I asked him to give it a whirl. The result was a respectable grouping.
That was a learning experience for me. It's not your fault that the customer trying out the 1911 was an immature pin head.
Encoreman
Member
D31TC, I am color blind and the target made of a color blind test isn't funny. LOL I started shooting USPSA years ago and up until that time I only plinked with my pistols. Well I can tell you when you shoot 500 or so rounds per week you will get better. Some get a lot better and some don't. I have shot with lots of LEO and to be honest most are not good shots. For one thing I don't think they train enough. You look at top shooters and I will tell you what they do most, dry fire, change mags, rinse and repeat. If you can hold your pistol still when you break the trigger, you can be a top shot. Practice may not make you perfect, but you should improve. If not go get some golf clubs
To be clear, I did not "win" the trophy (although it's a mother beautiful trophy)
. I had the smallest average extreme spread for all the guns we shot. I screwed up with my gun, maybe because of overconfidence, so that of the people shooting, I shot my gun the worst.That suggestion for golf clubs made me laugh. I bought a used set of Wilson's in 11th grade that I golfed with until I was about 40. The guy I bought them from had gotten mad and whacked the 3 iron on a tree so the shaft had a slight bend. I could hit that 3 iron like there was no tomorrow. Then one day, using the pitching wedge, there was a crisp "ping" when I hit the ball. The shaft had snapped and the club head went flying - farther than the ball. This was all the justification I needed to "upgrade" to a new set of clubs - bent 3 iron, broken pitching wedge. I went to a golf shop, apparently dressed inappropriately because I had flip flops, shorts and an old t-shirt. Couldn't get the staff to look my way as they dealt with people wearing polos. Anyway, when someone finally helped me, I asked them what the difference was between two sets of TaylorMades. He looked at me and said, "Marketing." I didn't buy the set there, but I bought a set of TaylorMade and was super excited to get to the driving range to hit a few buckets. I started hitting balls and might just as well have been hitting rocks
. I couldn't hit the balls worth a crap with the new set. I was extremely disappointed in the money I had spent. It took me a while, but with practice, I could hit with the clubs and usually do better than the other fellow hacks I golf with. There are a lot of analogies in this story that can be made to the shooting stories.Not to bash the shooting skills of any LE , but we had a Federal Prison not that far from us, and the guards would show up in groups from time to time. They put more holes in our ceiling baffles than any other group . They must have been mostly new trainee's. Then there was the chief of police in our local town, who had a snub nose revolver, but I never seen him wear it (it was not concealed) and I don't think he ever shot it.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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IIRC fit is very important for shot gunners, having youth sized rifle stocks is the best way to introduce younger shooters to marksmanship, properly fitting handgun stocks are a must for me. Ed McGivern said the factory S&W stocks of the 1930s fit his hand very well, Bill Jordan designed his Jordan Troopers, no doubt in the afterlife they're having some interesting conversations, perhaps some competitions. Dean Grennell mentioned owning an M1911 with a barrel that could barely keep its shots on a garbage can lid at 50 feet, a new barrel shrank those to about 5".
.38 Special
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I have, but only because I've shot some pretty inaccurate handguns!
.38 Special
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I've known some cops who were excellent shots, but the obvious thing they had in common was that they were (duh) enthusiasts. The "average" cop seems to view the gun the same way they view any other tool on their belt, and approaches qualification the same way most of us do a driving test - something to get through, but nothing we're going to address with more than the minimum personal investment. The results are predictable, of course.
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Zendude
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Did you notice any particular pattern regarding which gun people shot best with?
Absolutely. Not much of a shotgun shooter, a bit better w/a handgun, but give me a rifle........and I'll make it fit.
Perfect example of importance of handgun fitting the shooter. I never qualified well in several attempts with the 1911a1's in the service. Wrote it off to the well worn rattle traps we were issued at the time. Even bought a couple of different 1911A1's figuring to do better....no dice, after hundreds of rounds, finally gave up on the 1911's and sold them. Years later, picked up a 1911 and it quickly became my all time favorite handgun! The a1 arched mainspring housing was the problem.
Regards,
hps
We shot a Ruger LCP, CZ-75, RIA 2011, Henry 44-40 open sight, APF AR10 .308 Hunter scoped, and a Bushmaster Varminter scoped. The worst shot groups along with largest deviation from best group to worst was the Ruger LCP. Tricky little gun; not mine, but I set the bar with that gun. The Varminter had the smallest groups. Not surprisingly scoped rifle with bipod and rear monopod helped a lot.
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BLACKHAWKNJ
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I cannot fire an S&W K or N frame with factory grips, either Magna or Target. All my S&Ws wear either Herrett's or Pachmayrs.
The LCR is very challenging , for me anyway. (I get along with steel J frames just fine.)
I would think that the CZ-75 yielded good results?
Encoreman
Member
Yes I want to be very clear I am not bashing LEO's, they have always had a thankless job and in these times I try to tell every LEO I meet thanks for their service. Of the LEO's I have shot with, I assume the accurate ones were the ones that enjoyed shooting. I met a young LEO at the range a month or so ago and I let him shoot my Browning Buckmark target and he said it was the first time he shot a .22 pistol. I always carry a few pistols and lots of ammo to the range and you would be surprised at how people react when you offer them the chance to shoot your guns that they have shown an interest in.
Generally, yes. Shot groups for the LCP were about twice as large even at a distance 5 yards closer. CZ best (15 yards) - 2.74", CZ worst (15 yards) - 5.34"; LCP best (10 yards) - 4.09", LCP worst (10 yards) - 12.87"
Absolutely. Not much of a shotgun shooter, a bit better w/a handgun, but give me a rifle........and I'll make it fit.
Perfect example of importance of handgun fitting the shooter. I never qualified well in several attempts with the 1911a1's in the service. Wrote it off to the well worn rattle traps we were issued at the time. Even bought a couple of different 1911A1's figuring to do better....no dice, after hundreds of rounds, finally gave up on the 1911's and sold them. Years later, picked up a 1911 and it quickly became my all time favorite handgun! The a1 arched mainspring housing was the problem.
Regards,
hps
I was the opposite. I always shot the old 1911A1's way better than I could shoot the M9. I always qualified with the M9 but did better with the 1911A1.
Another reason for the competition was my particular entry, an AR10 308. I originally bought it for deer hunting to allow for faster follow up shots if available at distance. Anyway, I could never get it to shoot groups, multiple brands of quality hunting ammo, cheap ammo, and handloads. It's been, at best, a 2 MOA rifle and was not going to work for what I needed it to do. So I bought a different rifle . Could I really blame the rifle, or, was it me? I brought it to the competition to see if anyone else could shoot it better. Nope, still a 2 MOA rifle. 3.8" MOA for me that day 
.
. Could I really blame the rifle, or, was it me? I brought it to the competition to see if anyone else could shoot it better. Nope, still a 2 MOA rifle. 3.8" MOA for me that day .I am 100% with you when it comes to our law enforcement and military. Outside of a few bad ones like in any profession they put their lives on the line for the civilian population where all to many dontn't appreciate what they do. I left out a part of the story of the group of prison guard, that has nothing to do with ability to shoot, but is interesting still. It involves their maintenance armorer. I will have to tell about it sometime.
Armorers are the same, you have good ones and bars ones. As a machinist in the Army I worked with both. A lot of times it was easier and faster to bring weapons to me to work on versus sending them to Depot for repairs.
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