doubleh
Member
Thank you.
No, I suggested that you express your opinion without simultaneously desiring to express your emotion of sarcasm at a differing opinion.
Emotion has no place being expressed in connection with firearms.
My opinion was that introducing the side loading function while retaining the tube loading function was a smart move on Henry's part. I don't think I'm wrong and I stand by that opinion. Anyone who disagrees with that viewpoint can simply refrain from purchasing Henry products. For my part, I put my opinion into practice by purchasing a Henry lever-action rife with side loading gate and tube load.
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So what came first, the side loading gate on a lever gun, or the Vetterli bolt action?
The first lever gun with a side loading gate was the Winchester Model 1866, introduced in.....................1866.
I'm no expert on the Vetterli but I believe it was first produced in 1869.
I too have a few of the Miroku guns. A 1866 rifle in .38SP, a 1873 in .45Colt, and ---- speaking of .32-20 ---- an 1892 deluxe takedown in that caliber. They are out there ~~~ atleast in about 2015 when I found the .32-20 1892 NIB at a local gunshow. Dunno about .25-20 caliber.
I also really like the Miroku rifles. I have a Browning BL-22 that was also a Miroku made gun.
Btw, my 1873 is a "long rifle" --- 26" octagonal barrel, half magazine, and VERY NICE color case hardening on butt plate, lever and receiver.
Miroku is a step above Uberti in color case hardening, IMHO.
This is pretty circular logic.I think the fact that Henry has put side-gate loading ports on all of their lever action guns (except their replica of the original Henry, rimfires, and their modern box magazine feed lever action) should put the final nail in the coffin of those claiming the side-gate is not a requirement for a good and proper lever action.
Lever actions have side-gate loading ports! You may disagree, it is a free country, but you can still be wrong in a free country.
This is pretty circular logic.
"Real lever actions have side-gate loading ports because all rifles with levers but no side-gate loading port aren't real lever actions."
And, then you further confuse things by stating that box magazines are okay, but rotary magazines are not, AND one version of front loading tube is okay, but all the rest are not.
So, according to you, real lever-actions are lever-actions you like, and if somebody doesn't agree with you, they're wrong.
I would think a more logical definition of a "lever-action" would be a action that is operated by a lever, independent of cartridge chambering (center fire, rim fire or shotgun), or magazine design.
So if I were to be even more pedantic I would say that a good and proper lever-action is a lever actuated rifle with a side gate loading port used to fill a tubular magazine and has both a stock and separate handguard that covers at least a portion of the tubular magazine.
So I guess by your narrow definition my 1860 Henry is not a real lever gun. No side loading gate and no forend.
I'm sure B.F. Henry would disagree. Actually, he probably would not care. He designed the first practical lever gun. Later, Nelson King patented the side loading gate, and this eliminated the need for the slot under the magazine, so a wooden forend (handguard) could be added.
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Notice the follower tab extending through the bottom of the magazine. There is a slot running the length of the magazine that the tab runs in. That is how you pull the follower forward to open the front of the magazine for loading, as depicted in the photo I posted earlier. There is no forend so the slot can be clear to grab the tab. There were a few experimental Henries made with halves of a forend attached to either side of the barrel, still leaving the slot free, but they were just experimental and never went into production. I can tell you that on a hot summer day, after firing 10 rounds of Black Powder 44-40 cartridges, the barrel and magazine gets very hot. Too hot to hold, I always wear a glove when I shoot my Henry in the summer.
Yeah, I could shoot a '73 or a '92, but everybody has one of those. I have a few myself, but I won't take up so much bandwidth posting them all again.
My opinion is that any thread entitled "It's settled ... (insert whatever) ..." is intended to be a click-bait thread in order to hook differing opinions, and the OP shouldn't be surprised to collect a bucket-full of such, and if he was hoping to hook walleye and ended up with a bucket of catfish, well, hey, don't blame the catfish.
I don't understand why you don't think a Henry is a bona fide lever rifle. Your insistence on a loading gate and forend seems arbitrary to me.
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I don't understand why you don't think a Henry is a bona fide lever rifle. Your insistence on a loading gate and forend seems arbitrary to me.
If you want to talk about 'proto-lever-actions" how about the Volcanic?
The Volcanics were the direct ancestor of the Henry.
Smaller, and firing a pitiful 'Rocket Ball' cartridge that did not have much punch. When Oliver Winchester took over the production of the Volcanics, a couple of guys named Smith and Wesson moved on to create a new company for making revolvers. Winchester hired B. F. Henry to make a better cartridge than the Rocket Ball ammo, then he designed a bigger rifle to fire the new ammunition.
Uh.... who is "B. F. Henry???" I thought it was "Benjamin Tyler Henry. Or has my 65 year old memory missing another brain cell?
Would you consider an Martini-Henry, 1885 high-wall, or Ruger Model 1 a lever-action the same as an 1860 Henry or a 1892 Winchester? They are all lever actuated actions?
but I won't take up so much bandwidth posting them all again.
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So to answer your question, no I would not consider any of the Single Shot rifles you mentioned to be Lever Action Rifles, simply because they are not repeaters. To my mind, even the 1885 Winchester, invented by firearms genius John M Browning, is not a Lever Action Rifle. In my mind, to be a Lever Action Rifle it has to be a repeater, no matter whether or not there is a loading gate present. Or a tubular magazine for that matter. I certainly consider the Model 1895 Winchester to be a Lever Action Rifle, and the same with the Savage Lever Action Rifles.
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HATE tubular magazines that tend to push bullets into cases when the rifle fires.
Jeeez, what is with you? Do you just want to argue?
I don't have a 'definition' of what a Lever Action rifle is, I just have a bunch of them.
Spencer? I suppose.
That thing you just pictured, I couldn't care less. I have always thought the S&W and Rossi giant revolvers that chamber both 45 Colt and 410 shotgun were ridiculous, I will never own one. I wouldn't own one of those things either.
Here are a few more classics. A 44-40 Marlin Model 1894, made back around 1895. It is worn, no blue left, and the bore is pitted, but it still shoots straight.
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A 38-40 Marlin Model 1889. Not sure when this one was made, probably made in 1891.
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A 22 Rimfire Model 39A. Dunno when it was made, but it has Ballard rifling, not microgroove. Nope, no loading gate, the inner tube of the magazine gets pulled out halfway so fresh rounds can be fed in the opening in the magazine, like lots of other 22s. (I won't clutter things up here posting all my Winchester 22 pumps that load the same way.)
Yes, it is a Lever Action Rifle.
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