I've Lost My Passion For The 2A

[rbernie]

3.75 million Americans will die every year. Even event's such as 9/11 don't move the graph. They simply provide propaganda for those who have an agenda for destroying liberty.

Radagast wins the Internet for today. You said more, in fewer words, than I could ever have done. You are my hero.

 

[jmorris]

I just don't see why your hobbies are more important than the lives of Americans.

That is the problem in your thinking. I have never taken a single American life (good or bad one) and with the grace of God I will never have to.

That said taking all of my semiautomatic or even full auto firearms away and replacing them with squirt guns, would not save a single American life.

Not to mention there is a remote chance that it could cost me my own someday.

Turn yours in and sleep well and I will sleep well with mine.

 

[tarosean]

People have been killing each other long before the advent of firearms, and will continue to do so long after they are gone. Nothing will ever change that.

 

[Spats McGee]

I'm just now showing up at this party, but I'm going to go back to the OP. I'm also going to edit for brevity, and highlight a couple of items in subsequent posts.

. . . . I really don't think we need semiautomatic weapons, so here's my idea: a voluntary exchange of semiautomatic weapons for a bolt-action or other manual-action longarm or revolver plus the weapon's MSRP in cash, the addition of all semiautos to the NFA list (and the reopening of the registry and an increase in the tax stamp to a more reasonable number like 5k), universally-recognized concealed carry on a shall-issue basis marked via a DL endorsement, mandatory gun-safety training in schools, and a standardized system for removing weapons from people reported to be a danger that would require the state to provide an independent and unbiased psychiatric examination with a fine of $1000 per gun per day that they are confinscated in the event the seizure is unwarranted.

Umm, I'll pass on all of that, thank you. If you want to get rid of your semiautos, feel free. If you want more gun safety training, I'd encourage you to go get it. If you want a psychiatric exam, have at it.

Speaking of that, the following two statements are inconsistent:

. . . . a standardized system for removing weapons from people reported to be a danger that would require the state to provide an independent and unbiased psychiatric examination with a fine of $1000 per gun per day that they are confinscated in the event the seizure is unwarranted.

Fred Fuller, there really aren't any alternatives. "Mental health" is so vague a subject and diagnosis as to be useless from a gatekeeping point of view, and I don't think that it is reasonable to expect Americans as a whole to continue to tolerate the easy availability of gun owners to amass arsenals capable of depopulating schools when misused- and we all kbow that spree killers don't give a care for the consequences.

So which is it? Should the government provide (presumably useful) "independent and unbiased psychiatric examination," or is "'mental health' useless from a gatekeeping point of view?"

Finally, at least for the moment:

. . . . I really don't think we need semiautomatic weapons, . . . .

How have you even formed an opinion as to what I need? There are some folks who might have gotten tired of my sending them to jail. Do you know when and where one of those upstanding citizens might decide to take that out on me and my family? If so, please PM me that information so that we can stay home that night. My crystal ball hasn't been working lately.

You don't know what I, or anyone else, needs. No more than any of us do. I don't know if and when I might actually *need* a semiautomatic, but I'm unwilling to gamble my family's safety based on how someone else perceives my needs. They're my family. Their safety is my responsibility.

For that matter, why should I care about your opinion of my needs? The Bill of Rights isn't about what I, as an individual, need. It's about the rights that we have, and that our society needs for me to have. Let me give you a non-2A example. A4. Fortunately, I have never needed to suppress evidence in a criminal case against me based on a warrantless search of my house, so I have never "needed" to exercise my A4 rights. Nonetheless, I have that right, and society needs for me to have it. Trust me when I say that law enforcement could be much more effective without the A4, but we as a society need to keep it in place.

Like others, I reviewed some of your posts, Rocketmedic. I don't know that you ever had much 2A passion to lose. Still, if you've lost it and have chosen to go to the anti side, that's your call. I, however, decline to join you on that journey.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I really don't think we need semiautomatic weapons

Well, when you get right down to it we really don't need a lot of things we have and use everyday at this point in time. Things have a habit of changing though. Some would say our military doesn't need armed drones. After all, many countries don't have them and they get by right now. Drones don't always kill the bad guys, sometimes they kill civilians in the immediate area, but they do hit their targets about 99.9% of the time and are very effective. Did we need them 50 years ago, of course not. Ground army's used to work really well but more and more they are becoming 20th century tactics.

Would you hamstring our military on purely moral or ethical grounds? Is our personal defense any different than our military defense. A rule of thumb in combat is use the best available weapon. Personal defense isn't any different. If your opponent has a gun you want one just as good or better. That would be the semi-auto, the true standard of self defense in the 21st century. Pump shotguns and bolt rifles are sporting arms. I know because I've been an avid hunter for 50 years. Revolvers are 19th century arms. George Custer used one in 1876 at the battle of Little Bighorn. I was also in the military. That's how I know that semi-autos are defensive weapons and autos are offensive weapons.

I don't see my government or local LE as ever being my opponent but some do and if you're honest about it you would have to say it's the one and only reason for 2A. If you don't like 2A just come out and say you don't believe in the constitution and wish others would just go ahead and give up the rights that you and many others don't selectively endorse. That's what you are proposing.

How would you feel about me asking you to give up your 1A rights because I didn't think you needed to speak freely, assemble in public or practice a certain religion? You would probably think I was delusional or a Fascist.

 

[Trent]

I would reckon your resistance would last until a Hellfire turned your home, pickup and guns into a flaming pool of spilt diesel, charred meat and plastic slag.

What?

If the Government starts using Hellfires fired from drones or otherwise, on citizens, don't you think we're long overdue for hitting the reset button?

I don't care who you are, if you think you can justify dropping bombs on Americans to force a gun confiscation agenda, you are sorely mistaken. And, yes, that is *precisely* what you just said.

1. Forced confiscation enacted (even if remunerated, it's still forced, by threat of prison if you don't comply - armed men come to take your belongings)
2. Gun owners resist giving up their property and means of self-defense
3. Government starts launching missiles at gun owners homes who resist.

I'm really shocked at your train of thought, there. If the government started drone or assault helicopter strikes against people's homes in the US we're WAY over the threshold of what defines a tyranny. At that point it's time for @100 million gun owners to hit the reset button, so our people aren't being subjected to modern military assaults for offenses.

And yes, if it came down to it, we have WAY more gun owners than the government has hellfires. (Also, off-topic, but I have a suspicion that some of those missiles would be turned back at the people giving the orders, if that order came down.)

Recently we've seen armed groups of civilians stand up to the Federal government and the Federal government has stood down, to avoid bloodshed (BLM standoff, etc).

Don't overlook the power of the 2nd amendment... what the original purpose is for, and how important it is that we retain it intact for future generations.

You can't *always* count on this country being a shiny, happy place to live. 50 or 100 years from now our descendants may very well have a use for great-grand-dad's belt fed 50 cal or stack of AR-15's.

 

[TimSr]

Sorry but I find unbelieveable that anyone who would suggest such a plan ever had any passion for the 2A or has ever been a supportor. Obviously posted for a negative reaction. The total ignorance in the claim that semi-autos are not needed shows a total lack of connection to any knowledge of real world gun ownership whatsoever.

Except for a handful of oldtimers like myself, who get snickers for still carrying a revolver, probably at least 90% of all guns carried for personal defense are semi-autos. That you are not aware of that shows that you are not much of a 2A person.

 

[phil dirt]

Do you have any idea why we have a Second Amendment? Here's a clue. It doesn't have much to do with hunting. Besides, I don't care what you think!

 

[hso]

We've talked about the Anti carnigraphic fantasy of killing gun owners that resist the "almighty" military and debunked that idea.

States would not cooperate and just a few cooperating wouldn't make a workable solution when the majority refused and opposed the notion.

The federal authorities are too few to carry out this murderous fantasy so it would require state and local forces. Those would primarily refuse to participate and would oppose facing their friends and neighbors they swore to protect. How many of the people in uniform do you actually think would have the stomach for facing their family, friends and neighbors? How many would refuse to show up if they knew what they were being asked to do? How many would oppose it or actively resist. Don't be confident that those that cooperated wouldn't end up on trial and executed for treason.

"Peasants" have proven a minimally organized group with simple weapons can stymie the might of government forces.

Dragging this bankrupt idea out is the clear sign of shallow thinking.

 

[grampster]

There is a great deal of thoughtful and accurate rebuttal to the OP and subsequent remarks by him/her. But, for me it's also not just about laws and controls. It's personal. I'm 72 years old and have been around firearms since I was a youth when my dad taught me firearm usage and safety.

I was in LE for a number of years. I never experienced a situation where a law abiding person suddenly used a firearm in an unlawful way. To say that never happens? Of course it does, but it is extremely rare. There was the occasional suicide with a gun. But I policed more suicides by other means.

Using numbers to try and prove a negative point with respect to firearms never seem to take into account, on the gun control side, to point out we have doubled our population over the last 50 years. More people, more stuff happens. Throw in instant news media worldwide and you are able to hear and see more than was ever possible 70 years ago. Perhaps you should take that into account. That media also can be dangerous as the unbalanced among us are looking for ways to make themselves famous or to validate their irrational thoughts. I don't hear anyone on your side of the aisle promoting a restriction in the freedom of the press, even though it seems to be pushing a distorted agenda than reporting the facts. Would you promote a universal background check on a story? Maybe that would be more efficacious than for firearms. How about a 10 day waiting period on a news story? Or limiting a reporter to one story a month? Sound ludicrous? No more so than some of the silly gun control dreck.

I have owned a lot of firearms in various configurations over my lifetime. I haven't harmed or frightened anyone because of it. In fact, I had several people over my lifetime tell me that they felt safer because they knew that I probably had a concealed firearm on my person. They assumed that because of my background in LE.

I take umbrage that someone like yourself who does not know me, believes he should be able to restrict my behavior or my right to protect myself and my family in whatever way I choose as long as I am presently breaking no laws, nor harming others. You may wish to live in a fantasy world where you believe that evil people will be constrained by constraining law abiding folks. Personally, with all due respect, you are the irrational one here in that regard, as most of your thought processes fly in the face of reality.

 

[hso]

Folks, he's only 26 and a product of the media culture. Try to help him realize his opinion isn't based on sound information instead of throwing him under the bus.

 

[Lord Teapot]

Folks, he's only 26 and a product of the media culture. Try to help him realize his opinion isn't based on sound information instead of throwing him under the bus.

I'm only 26, age is no excuse for a patent disregard for the freedoms our ancestors fought and died for.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Rocketmedic sounds like he has been worn down by the increase in political rhetoric on gun violence and gun control.

FBI Uniform Crime Report on murders; govt estimates of gun ownership.*
1994 Murder rate 9.0 per 100,000; 192 million private guns.
2013 Murder rate 4.5 per 100,000; 310 million private guns.

There has been an increase in news focus on mass shootings with an editorial push for gun control, but there is not anything to convince me that such killers with motive and opportunity are going to be deterred by legal restrictions on means. Some spend months planning their 15 minutes of infamy. The Norwegian killer made trips to alleged black market havens to acquire weapons and gear.

I lost my passion for gun control a long time ago, before I had a chance to develop it. My home county had a dry law, local option prohibition, 1953-1968: no legal alcohol sales, period (there was a loophole for state licensed social organizations like VFW and Eagles). I was 5 to 20 years old in those years.

My father and my uncles took me to the mountain shooting at cans starting at 6 and hunting squirrels as a teen. I took civilian marksmanship seriously as my military age approached. And I encountered some draconian local gun laws in those days.

What I saw in my formative years was bootlegging. Moonshining. Smuggling from Virginia where the state ran Alcoholic Beverage Commission ABC stores. Bootlegging related violence in the news. And the bad guys in my neighborhood had guns from illegal bootleg sources. They could get pistols without the sheriff or police chief signing off on an application for permission to purchase. And they carried without the permit issued at sheriff's discretion. The laws did not affect the lawless, they affected only the law-abiding. And in 1959-1960 when there was a bug push to ban handguns, my father and my uncles made a point of acquiring handguns while they were available.

I have no faith in gun control, prohibition, or voodoo criminology in general (banning books, sin taxes, etc.): it only affects the law abiding or the people who didn't want what was banned in the first place. And it benefits bootleggers and black marketeers.

There are 60 million gunowners in America. How many Hellfire missiles does the government have? And who besides a few nuts like @LALawyer and #RepealTheSecondAmendment advocate drone strikes on gun rights supporters anyway? A lot of the people who took the soldier's oath to support and defend the Constitution and to obey lawful orders would mutiny at such an order, with UCMJ justification.

_______________________
* FBI Uniform Crime Report 1994, the US homicide rate stood at
9 per 100,000 population per year.

In 1994, the National Survey on Private Ownership and use of Firearms, NSPOF,
was conducted for the Clinton Administration and estimated Americans owned
192 million firearms.

FBI Uniform Crime Report 2013, the US homicide rate stood at
4.5 per 100,000 population per year.

The Congressional Research Service report "Gun Control Legislation" Nov 2012
estimated Americans owned 310 million firearms.

 

[Teachu2]

Folks, he's only 26 and a product of the media culture. Try to help him realize his opinion isn't based on sound information instead of throwing him under the bus.

I'd rather outlaw busses......

 

[Wisco]

I just don't see why your hobbies are more important than the lives of Americans.

It's not my hobby, it's my Constitutional right to exercise if I so choose, which I, in fact, choose to do. I choose to exercise this very right because of what you say here:

I would reckon your resistance would last until a Hellfire turned your home, pickup and guns into a flaming pool of spilt diesel, charred meat and plastic slag.

Your comment is disgusting and reveals your character. I'm skeptical you've ever been witness to such an event, for if you have, you'd have a modicum of respect for exactly what that situation is in regard to the human life you claim to respect so much you need to ban certain guns.

You should go reckon somewhere else with your foul comments.

 

[BSA1]

Rocketmedic,

Thank you for sharing your opinions on THR.

Since Hillary has made gun control the central point of her campaign it is important that gun owners understand what she really wants to accomplish and the mindset of her supporters. Your post gives us a better understanding of liberals like yourself and why this coming Presidential election is so important to those who embrace conservative values.

I hope your post will help motive fellow THR members to become active in educating family, friends and neighbors and getting them out to vote for a President that truly supports the right to bear and keep arms.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So, over the last two years, I have found my faith and belief in the 2A badly shaken by the depressing and continuous string of mass shootings. I've heard the calls for mental health screening (which would disqualify hundreds of thousands of Americans on the basis of medical conditions from 2A rights and would likely be opposed stringently by the gun-rights lobby), and to be honest, I do not believe that any reasonable alternative to gun control exists.

How about this? Gun control doesn't stop criminals and crazies getting guns, so I better have a gun myself.

 

[hso]

Folks,

If we can help him see the flaws in the idea that there's a pervasive threat we may be able to help turn him around on this. If we can't, we may be able to save someone else from these fallacies.

universally-recognized concealed carry on a shall-issue basis marked via a DL endorsement, mandatory gun-safety training in schools,

Heck, his OP idea to provide kids with good gun-safety training as part of school and national reciprocity is something most have been advocating.

Lets help him understand the facts instead of succumbing to the emotional propaganda.

 

[vito]

Amazing to me that such a ridiculous post, especially to this audience, has generated so many comments. I doubt that we who support the 2A will convince any anti-gunners to leave their fantasy world and see the world as it is, not as they wish it were, and suddenly through our logic and rational thinking convert an anti to a pro-gun supporter. So why bother trying.

 

[Barry the Bear]

Mr. Heston once said "from my cold,dead,hands!" that statement in thin political climate is truer now than ever before. You have the right to say anything you'd like due to the first amendment of the Constitution but it doesn't guarantee that what you say is right, I don't consider anyone who would attack the Constitution as my fellow citizens or compatriot.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think this guy used the moniker of "Rocket100" on the Arkansas Hunting Net. I wondered what happened to him after the election of 2014.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I'll eek in before this gets shutdown.

We need to ban all the mosquitoes in the world. Or at least pass legislation to control them. They are the #1 killer of humans.

 

[adcoch1]

The goal isn't to entirely stop mass shootings, it is to lower the death toll. A combination of widespread carry and weapons restrictions would do that.

I believe that widespread carry is a solution, since every mass shooting in the us could have been stopped by a CC before turning into a mass shooting. Restricting the TYPE of firearm isn't an answer, although I am not beating up the sentiment. The real problem is we are getting polarized in our opinions instead of focusing on the fact that we will never in any situation in society, be without the hyper violent. Weather by choice or insanity, there are always going to be those that use violence to establish their position, opinion, etc. We need to get over whining about it and be PREPARED to quickly stop it from getting out of control. You also hit on another necessary point and that is firearm training in school so everyone at least has a rough understanding of firearms that didn't come from video games. OK, done with my discourse

 

[Fred Fuller]

A read of http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/10/arranging_american_gun_confiscation.html might help clarify things a bit.

And try http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2015/10/please-dear-leader-ban-firearms-by.html too.

 

[MedWheeler]

Rocketmedic has stated he thinks we believe that a gun is a "prequisite to going out to dinner", and that a "pistol should be part of a school packing list."

He also fears being a victim of a random nutjob embarking on a mass shooting than one of any other violent crime, despite the fact that tens of thousands of Americans are victims of violent crime each year, versus fewer than 100 on average of randomly-committed mass shootings.

There is no shortage of "independent" mental health professionals that would agree that there is an element of irrationality in those fears, and that the person with them may well have other psychological issues as well. I wonder if that would constitute, in his dream world, cause for him being among those ordered to surrender his 2A civil rights.