J-Frame vs. K-Frame .357 magnum

[ArchAngelCD]

It wasn't so much the K frame forcing cones were weak, they just weren't designed for the excessive velocities generated by light bullets. When the K frame was developed no one was really shooting a 125gr bullet in the .357 Magnum. The 158gr bullet was most common and most shot. When 125gr jacketed bullets became popular .357 Magnum ammo using that light bullet became a speedster. Those excessive velocities are what damaged some K frame forcing cones. From what I remember the one on the left with the flattened bottome of the forcing cone was a modification to prevent the damage from occuring. (but I could be wrong on that point)

 

[1911Tuner]

It wasn't so much the K frame forcing cones were weak, they just weren't designed for the excessive velocities generated by light bullets.

Any thinning weakens the material.

When the K-Frame .357s were introduced, it's doubtful that there were any jacketed bullet loads available...light or heavy. The standard fare was a 158 grain LSWC loaded to the original frantic pressures that were meant for N-Frames.

From what I remember the one on the left with the flattened bottome of the forcing cone was a modification to prevent the damage from occuring.

That's a clearance cut for the crane. Without it, the cylinder wouldn't close.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

At least I knew I was probably wrong about the cut.. LOL

 

[popeye]

I'm gettin a little long in the tooth. With that malady comes a little rheumatism in the wrists, more so in thumb joints. .357 is a thing of the past for me much less out of a Jframe. I really like the Colt DS format. DS, Agent, Cobra. With the weather colder now I carry a DS on my belt, and a recently aquired Smith 640 no dash .38 spec. in my back pocket. The 640 replaces a 432 I WAS carrying so both guns are same caliber. I like .38 spec 158GR LSWC'S in both guns. I guess I'm a wimp.

 

[friscolatchi]

In my experience carrying the 1 7/8 scandium snubby (340ct M&P) as EDC cannot be beat. It handles any 38 's with aplomb, is light and very easily concealed in a front pocket. When I camp and hike in the mt's in the summer, loading it up with 357's makes me feel better when camping in bear infested camping areas. I figure that I can point that pretty red laser at the big hairy black head and let the 158's rip (am I kidding myself??). I found that I can handle 357 loads in this gun shot as if I have a pit bull by the ears. I have no problem hitting the mark, and using the laser and can group reasonable well at 10 yards. However, this usually comes AFTER my practice with 38's. I really feel that the 357/38 Lightweight J frame is the perfect carry gun, as I can stick it in my pocket when summer backpacking and hiking. Here in NY, there are 3 things that I take in consideration: concealment, concealment and concealment.

However, the K frame ( I have a 4 inch 19-6) shoots way way better in all formats. I'm reticent about shooting the higher velocity 357 loads due to the forcing cone issues, but the difference is like driving a subcompact ( J frame) and a mid sized or larger vehicle (K frame ) I haven't had the opportunity to shoot the L frames in this caliber but would certainly like to get spoiled. As I said previously, in NY State it's about concealment otherwise I'd carry a larger framed revolver, probably a 3 incher.

Please correct me if I"m misguided.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm reticent about shooting the higher velocity 357 loads due to the forcing cone issues,

If you can live with 158-160-grain cast bullets, 13.5 grains of 2400 is accurate to a hundred yards and powerful enough to let you know you've touched off a magnum...and the gun will stand a lot of it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

friscolatchi,
I agree a 12oz S&W Airlite is an easy carry in your front pocket but I find the Airweight no worse to carry in my front pocket. The Airweight at 15oz is just fine and it doesn't bite much when firing .38 Special +P ammo in the form of The FBI Load.

 

[iyn]

How does the Sw 60 in 3" barrel shot with .38 sp.?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

How does the Sw 60 in 3" barrel shot with .38 sp.?

The 3" M60 is an all Steel revolver which weighs 24.5oz. That's almost 10oz more than the M637 and more than twice the weight of the M360. Since .38 Special ammo is quite controllable in the 15oz Airweight it's even more so in a 24.5oz J frame. I own a M640 which is an all Steel Centennial J frame and can shoot .38 Special ammo in it all day long at the range. Actually, 145gr Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum ammo is not bad either in those J frames.

 

[BrocLuno]

The S&W Model 60 in .38SPL is a joy to shoot. Get grips that fit your hand and it's even better

 

[Rob1109]

I wouldn't mind finding a 6 round 2" revolver at about 18-20oz. Suggestions?
Thanks in advance...........

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I wouldn't mind finding a 6 round 2" revolver at about 18-20oz. Suggestions?
Thanks in advance...........

The Charter Arms Police Undercover is one of the few 6 round J frame size revolvers still in production. Since the Ecker family is back at Charter Arms the QC is back too. It's just what you asked for, a 6 round .38 Special +P w/2" barrel that weighs only 20oz. It's price on the street is less than $400 too.

 

[friscolatchi]

Arch,

what do you think is the limit of weight for pocket carry? Up to 20 oz? I can see what you mean in regards to the Airweight at 15 oz. I have family that will be getting their CC permits and I'll recommend. The 340 is not for every one, not only does it have greater recoil effect but is much more expensive. The CT grips tames it a bit. Thanks for the input.

 

[Rob1109]

I carry a 642(14.4oz?) and LCR(13.5oz) sometimes in my front pocket w/o a problem. My M36 at about 20oz. would get somewhat tiresome, so that would probebly get a OWB carry. The LCR is superior to the 642 for recoil and trigger pull. But, still a snubbie with all the associated problems for a nubie. Personal preference....

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Arch,

what do you think is the limit of weight for pocket carry? Up to 20 oz?

I was carrying a M36 in my front pocket and after a while it was fine. Then I bought an Airweight and that was better but I don't like going back to the M36 if I don't have to.

I would say if you carried that 20oz revolver every day for a week or so it would become second nature. Like anything else it's what you're used to... Remember, you will be carrying a 6 round revolver, not a 5 round one like my M36. At least you get an extra round for the slight additional weight.

 

[Warners]

I'd rather have an older K-frame .357 than a new J-frame .357 any day of the week! My Model 66 has no problems with the .357s. Just avoid the lighter weight bullets. And most of the J-frames are "point & shoot" guns and I like a gun with an adjustable rear sight.

Which grips are these? I REALLY like them!

Thanks in advance,

Warner

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There is a basic rule of physics that say, "Never shoot a gun that weighs less than the bullet." The light-weight .357 snubbies violate this rule.

 

[Rob1109]

I hate to shoot +P's in my 642. Can't imagine a .357 in even a lighter weapon!
The older I get the lighter the gun. Wouldn't mind a S&W Model 12, since it's a 6 round at about 20oz. But, the current owners want to retire off them!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I hate to shoot +P's in my 642. Can't imagine a .357 in even a lighter weapon!

I shot a Airlite a few times and it's not pleasant at all. When you fire that 12oz revolver with full power .357 Magnum ammo it feels like someone is smacking your palm with a sturdy stick, hard! It really stings then goes a little numb and while shooting gloves help a bit, it's still not a good idea for a defensive handgun IMO.

Hey, that's why Speer developed their Short Barrel .357 Magnum ammo. Even though it's only rated @990 fps they call it Magnum to make the people who spent all that money on a 120z .357 Magnum feel better that they are shooting .357 Magnum ammo. (well, almost but at least it's marked .357 Magnum)

 

[popeye]

Let's say you've got your scandium super lite J Frame loaded with .357's. It's so light it would float away into the air without ammo loaded in it. You've got a laser mounted on that little beauty also. One night your walking your little dog and a big aggressive dog jumps out of bush and makes it clear he's going to attack. You pull your gun and bring your trusty laser to bare on that approaching dog. You pull the trigger. You better hope you hit the offender because you won't see again for 15 mins.

 

[rdrancher]

I shot a Airlite a few times and it's not pleasant at all. When you fire that 12oz revolver with full power .357 Magnum ammo it feels like someone is smacking your palm with a sturdy stick, hard! It really stings then goes a little numb and while shooting gloves help a bit, it's still not a good idea for a defensive handgun IMO.

I'll second that! I don't consider myself recoil sensitive, but I do have arthritis in my fingers and wrists from years of construction and ranch work. I fired a cylinder full of "real" magnums out of a friend's Airlite and that was plenty for me! It wasn't my fingers or wrist that hurt, but the palm of my hand. It's a definite SMACK!

I've tried Buffalo Bore's Heavy LSWCHP +P rounds, but settled on their standard pressure version as my "max load" in my 642. Truthfully, I keep the little j-frame loaded with standard pressure LSWC's or WC's for daily carry. I can afford to practice with a lot of them and I know where they're going to hit.

rd

 

[Strykervet]

Stainz: that is a sweet revolver, very nice.

I have a 340pd and a 686+ 6", I love them both, but they have different applications. I agree the 340pd would NOT make a good first revolver (the 686, any of them but particularly the newer models) would be a perfect choice. The 340pd has painful recoil, it feels like an intense bone shattering vibration, not a "kick". I, too, load it with .38+p for the first two rounds, which should do the trick, and the next three are 158gr. Gold Dots (not fun, but they work). This is strictly a conceal carry piece and it is phenomenal at that one job. What they call a "belly gun".

You can shoot the 686 all day long. It is so much fun, my wife is VERY recoil sensitive, but she enjoys shooting this one, even with the heavy loads. With .38+p it almost shoots like a .22. The trigger on the DA 340pd is heavy, long, and safe. The 686 (mine at least) is smooth and long DA, but SA has a feather trigger that I laboriously honed and polished. I'd go so far as to say it is my favorite of all my weapons. I got it for just over $200, including tax, in '99. I'd buy a case of them at that price now if I could.

S&W make newer models that, I think, may be better, like the 8 shot. Some now are large frame scandium with steel cylinders, all kinds of choices (the scandium frame with the steel cylinder is probably the better compromise now, but I got the titanium one right when they came out). The performance center pieces are awesome, such as Stainz's.

All of them hold up to the .357 mag now, but not all of them are fun shooters. The lighter it gets, the more painful it gets. Note that the 340pd is so light that it has a warning ON the barrel stating that bullets <125gr. not be used. This is because the thing is so light and so powerful that the first shot or two will unseat the rest of the rounds in the cylinder. It also happens with heavier bullets, but not so bad. I also would refrain from shooting reloads or handloads in this revolver. I blew out parts of the cylinder around the forcing cone using N110 and 140gr. xtp's. They were not hot, they were fine in the 686, but they are hot and long winded and I think that was the culprit. S&W graciously replaced the cylinder --I sent it out on Monday and got back on Friday, now that is service!

 

[Rob1109]

"I've tried Buffalo Bore's Heavy LSWCHP +P rounds, but settled on their standard pressure version as my "max load" in my 642. Truthfully, I keep the little j-frame loaded with standard pressure LSWC's or WC's for daily carry. I can afford to practice with a lot of them and I know where they're going to hit."

If you get a chance read Buffalo Bore's comments/logic on their 150gr. (148?) HC WC. It comes out a a S&W snub and something like 885fps. Interesting.....

 

[rdrancher]

If you get a chance read Buffalo Bore's comments/logic on their 150gr. (148?) HC WC. It comes out a a S&W snub and something like 885fps. Interesting....

I've run a few boxes through my 642 and like the round a lot. Buffalo Bore has a nice variety to choose from, for sure.

We're a bit off-subject, but here's an interesting read on wadcutters for you.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_49/ai_97170894/

THR member JE223 has gelatin test results on Buffalo Bore and many others here.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38%20Special.html

 

[S&Wfan]

I'll take a short barreled K-frame .357 any day over any J-frame .357. The former is a serious fighting handgun, the later is made because so many new shooters just HAVE to have a super tiny, super light .357.

Truly, if I were dictator of the world I'd ban those 12 oz. super-light little revolvers in .357. Sure, they'll never wear out . . . because no one is going to shoot them much at all. Total pain, horrid recovery times between shots and a very poor choice for self defense. Additionally, the violent recoil can literally pull the remaining bullets almost out of their cartridges, and jam up the guns!!!

I own J frames . . . but all in .38 Special, for this is the perfect FIGHTING round in a J frame.

Don't own any clunky L frames anymore. I'm always looking for .357 K frames though. Y'all keep spreading that junk about the K's wearing out from the 125 gn. bullets.

Those true stories came from serious, competition shooters wearing out THEIR K frames due to firing thousands of rounds of hot, lightweight .357 bullets PER WEEK in their competition revolvers for practice. Most folks will NEVER, EVER wear out a K frame from cracked forcing cones.

I've lost count of how many thousands of rounds I've put through my 1984-vintage 3" barreled Model 65 K-frame. Lots of practice rounds and lots of competitions fired with this gun . . . though not with 125 grain Federal Hydrashocks and such. Nawww . . . that's just what I keep it loaded with for self defense. I've probably only fired about 800 rounds of 125gn stuff through this gun. It is still just as good and tight as when it was new!!! Won a bunch of matches with this sweet shooting gun too! . . .

The K frame is the most perfectly balanced, and compact framed 357 revolver concept ever perfected . . . great for the average street cop and the average civilian in every way!!!