Just finished my first batch today

[chaim]

I just completed my first batch of reloads today that I'll be shooting tomorrow. What can I expect from this load (got it from the load sheet that came with my Lee .357mag dies).

I used 6.9 (or was it 6.8, I'd have to double check) grains of Universal Clays with a 158 gr "jacketed" bullet (in this case a Ranier 158gr plated flat point).

This was the listed starting load. Unfortunately, I don't think Universal is often used for .357mag so I didn't find many other loads listed to check this against so I am just a tad paranoid (it was my first reloading attempt). Is 6.8 or 6.9 grains of Universal too much for a starting load of .357mag? Should this be reasonably accurate? Did I make a good choice (I'm interested in something that burns pretty clean and is reasonably accurate plus it should be fairly fun to shoot- decent amount of recoil and noise but not punishing)?

Since there aren't many mag loads listed for this powder I'll probably buy some blue dot or 2400 that seems to be more useful for this cartridge and use the Universal for .38spls after this.

I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes (I'll be shooting it out of my S&W 586).

 

[P95Carry]

I have absolutely NO experience with that powder ...... but I would say that if you want some good .357 loads then go with the faves ..... Blue Dot is a tad fast for ''full house'' loads IMO but ... 2400 or Vit N110 ...... others may eschew H110 i expect too ...... good slow powders (actually fast rifle powders --- if you look at em that way) ...... and you'll get good results.

I reckon that good full house mag loads do require, not only a slowish powder but ... a real, genuine ..... case-full charge .... other slightly faster powders do not achieve that..... and if ''cranked up'' can IMO produce excessive high pressure peaks.

Just an 0.02

 

[Steve Smith]

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP

Ok, not a .357 Mag loader, but a quick trip to hodgdonpowder.com showed be that a max .357 Mag 158 jacketed load was 6.3 grains of Universal. You are half a grain OVER max!!!

Page is here: http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/357mag.php

 

[Mal H]

When I first saw the 6.8 (or is it 6.9) grains of Universal, I was thinking that doesn't sound like a starting load to me for a plated bullet.

Hodgdon tends to be overly conservative in their load recommendations. Looking at Speer #13, the max load for a 158 gr jacketed bullet is 7.3 gr of Universal.

However, you aren't loading for a jacketed bullet. Rainier plated bullets act more like lead than jacketed, or maybe somewhere in between. In general, a lead load will be lighter than a jacketed load to achieve the same velocity. Those loads are going to be zippy, but you won't blow up your gun, if that's what you're asking.

Recommendation: Throw away any and all Lee loading info sheets that come with the dies. And use their dippers only for dipping; they are not "measuring" dippers, period

[Added]
If Lee suggests 6.9 gr as the starting load, what do they say is the max?

 

[Steve Smith]

Mal, thank you for having additional load data.

I missed that bit about load data from Lee. Please through that away and buy a real powder measure...or have a Lee representative to test their loads in your gun...with their hands!

FWIW, accuracy will probably be very good. You are near the top of the power band for that load.

 

[chaim]

Something told me that this might be a little hot, and checking what few sources for other .357 loads with this powder seemed to suggest so too. I guess you guys say I should be ok but it will be a bit strong. It shouldn't be so strong that I should pull the bullets and start over? So if I like this it is a L-frame and not a K-frame magnum load, right?

Recommendation: Throw away any and all Lee loading info sheets that come with the dies. And use their dippers only for dipping; they are not "measuring" dippers, period

I have been using the Lee measures only as "dippers", each time I weighed it on a Lyman 505 scale. I guess I'll be ignoring the data sheets with the dies from now on, sounds like good advice.

If Lee suggests 6.9 gr as the starting load, what do they say is the max?

Well, I don't have it in front of me right now, but if I remember right it was something like 7.3 or 7.4.

 

[Mal H]

Sounds good, chaim. Their range isn't really out of line for jacketed bullets.

It shouldn't be so strong that I should pull the bullets and start over?

I wouldn't. I would, however, fire one and only one and then examine that case looking for any signs of overpressure such as flattened primer, web expansion, etc. Personally, I don't think you'll find any.

The main error here was using jacketed bullet load data with plated bullets. But I think the only 'bad' thing that will come of it is that you might be burning a percentage of the powder outside the muzzle.

 

[Steve Smith]

Actually, (lets pick apart Chaim's mistakes, not to run him down, but to let him learn and remind ourselves) I think the main error was to trust only one company's info. On top of that it was not a powder company's info, but a press and die manufacturer. Always reference two or more sources, and try to make one of them the powder manf. that made your powder.

 

[chaim]

OK, a couple questions now.

First, since there don't seem to be that many loads listed for Universal Clays and .357mag should I go ahead and get something else that has more loads in the magnum and relagate the Universal for .38spl loadings? I only found one other source for Universal and .357 in 158grains and since they were so far off each other I had to decide which to trust (I'm not quite sure why I picked the stronger one, I have been almost paranoid in my decision making for reloading until this choice). Other than Blue Dot or 2400 what is a good powder to use that is also going to give me some versatility (.38spl, I'm soon to get a .44spl and I may get a .45lc soon and I might reload .45acp before long, all of which I'd prefer to be able to have at least one or two loads out of the same powder since I don't have a lot of space to store the stuff).

Second, if plated bullets act more like lead than jacketed bullets for loading data, how about their performance in other areas? Quality lead bullets are a little cheaper so if the plated bullets aren't really going to shoot any cleaner I'd rather save a few dollars (since the assumed lower leading levels is why I went with the plated)?

Last, some of the sources I found online and for many revolver calibers in my reloading handbook the assumption seems to be that if you aren't using a hollowpoint you are using lead. In the future I'd like to shoot FMJ out of it (less leading, cheaper than hollowpoints). Should I take the loading for a lead bullet of the same weight and maybe adjust it (and if so, how much adjustment), or would I be better off taking the JHP loading for a FMJ of the same weight?

 

[E357]

Chaim, for the calibers you've mentioned Universal, HP-38 (aka Win-231), AA-2, AA-5, VV-320, VV-340, Universal, Unique, Bullseye, Titegroup will all work fine. They are all fast to medium Pistol powders. It sounds like that's want you want to get started. I would start with Win-321 or HP-38 (the same stuff in a different bottle). Use that as your learning power; then go on from there.

Plated bullets are much cleaner shooting than lubed lead. With plated bullets you must use a taper crimp. A heavy roll crimp will cut through the thin copper plating. I've used Berry's and Ranier and use Speer Glod Dot's in competition (They are actually plated - not jacketed, but the plating is superb. For general shooting I use Ranier when shooting indoors and lots of regular lead when shooing outdoors. For very light target loads I really like Zero brand lead bullets.

Other than Gold-Dots, plated bullets cannot be driven to heavy magnum speed levels. The plating sometime separates from the soft lead core and the bullet heads off to parts unknown. Anything under 1200 FPS is fine. - Remember Taper crimp.

Blue Dot is my favorite .357 Magnum powder, since a regular primer sets it off just fine and you can down load it a bit - which you SHOULD NEVER DO WITH 2400. I find about 80% of the Max Blue Dot loads very accurate. It also works well in the .45 ACP at full loads.

Be careful with the .357 and very fast powders, Just trust an old guy on this one. Either hand weight or look into every case or use and AUTO indexing press. You don't want a double charge of fast powder. That's one reason a lot of guys like the slower powders, they fill the case. Repeating myself - That's why Blue-Dot is nice for the .357 mag.

Getting back to Universal I've found 7.0 grains under a 125 jacketed just about perfect, so I think the same amount with a 158 would be about 10% too much.

Be safe
Elliot

 

[chaim]

I shot this on Thurs afternoon. It actually wasn't too bad. The recoil and report were actually quite mild. Compared to a factory load I bought at the range to compare (I'm not sure if it was 125 or 158gr JSP) it was extremely mild. There was a fair amount of flash though so it apparently wasn't a particularly efficient loading.

Since much of the powder seemed to be burned up outside the barrel (6" 586) I guess I'll download it a bit and save some powder.

It was a nice load otherwise. Mild recoil and blast, much more accurate than the factory stuff (I held a group to about 2-2.5" at 25feet without really trying that hard, then the group seemed to nearly double with the factory stuff and the same effort).

I will certainly make a note of this load and, again downloading a bit, make a larger batch (being my 1st I only did 50 rounds, just in case) and I'll keep closer track of its accuracy. This powder, while not being suitable as a true magnum (again, this apparently overloaded load still felt very mild), might just be nearly perfect for a lower pressure practice load for my 2 K-frame .357s. I also think I'll look for some good .38spl loads for it for my Colt PPS and Taurus 85CH (it will be in my hands soon- it made it to my FFL, I'm just waiting on the waiting period). For real magnum loads though, the search continues (still leaning towards 2400 or Blue Dot).

 

[HSMITH]

Buy some Blue Dot for the 110 and 125 grain loads, Lil Gun or 296 will work good for the 158's.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

I haven't tried .357 magnum loads, but have loaded .38 spl to 5 gr of Clays Universal. I ALWAYS use West Coast Bullets' copper plated 158 gr RN bullets.

Speers says that 4.6 gr for lead gives a velocity of 902 fps out of a 6" S&W M14; I get about 809 fps from a 4" M66. Speers says that .38 sp. +P load of 5 gr gives 971 fps; I get 890 to 900 from the 4" M66. The SD is in the 24 to 30 range.

You can play with extraplolations to the .357 magnum options.

I was interested in Universal because of the large grain size, though do have concerns about consistency due to size.

I found 4.4 gr of Bullseye to be more interesting as the light load is CHEAP and gives a velocity of about 880 fps and SD of 9.6 in the 4" M66. In the 6" 686+ the recoil and noise are almost comical and even with my minimal skills at 7 yds I could probably stay in the X ring on a standard 25 yd bullseye from the bench as the 10 ring is very easy from offhand.