SnWnMe
Member
Lichen = the next Elmer Keith
Just how powerful *IS* the .460 S&W Magnum?
- Thread starter MikeHaas
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I took the 460 out to pop some rounds today and while doing so, I used a pine tree to sort of steady my gun while I slowly squeezed the trigger...the tree was on the right side, and when she exploded, the blast gas escaping from in between the forcing cone and the cylinder blasted the bark loose with enough force to splatter my face.
I had 53 grains of lil gun in that load...and it was a caution. I felt then that I was indeed playing with fire and so I decided that was way too much powder for that load...it was a 250gr hornady hollow point, and it had swelled ever so slightly in the chamber. So I came back to the bench and reloaded them to 50grns. I will see now. I am getting some serious punch out of this monster magnum, beats the hell out of the 454 casull, hands down. You simply can't fit as much powder, not by ten grains, and that makes for a BIG difference. As far as I am concerned, the debate between the Casull and the 460 is waaay over. I can't load the casull hot enough to penetrate 5/16 steel; in fact, it's not even close.
The 460 is an entirely different machine from anything else I have ever owned, hands down.
I believe that if the cases are not swelling, I am safe. Now I need some stainless steel cases, so I can pump them up just a little bit higher...I believe the 460 will be hard to beat and soon I will invest in a chronometer so I can see what I am getting out of this indomitable revolver.I believe it's possible to punch it up to 2,600fps and 2,500foot-pounds of kinetic energy. Furthermore, I believe the specs are too tame by 25%, of course they are, they set the bar way low in order to make sure everyone is safe.
I just hope I don't blow myself up.
I had 53 grains of lil gun in that load...and it was a caution. I felt then that I was indeed playing with fire and so I decided that was way too much powder for that load...it was a 250gr hornady hollow point, and it had swelled ever so slightly in the chamber. So I came back to the bench and reloaded them to 50grns. I will see now. I am getting some serious punch out of this monster magnum, beats the hell out of the 454 casull, hands down. You simply can't fit as much powder, not by ten grains, and that makes for a BIG difference. As far as I am concerned, the debate between the Casull and the 460 is waaay over. I can't load the casull hot enough to penetrate 5/16 steel; in fact, it's not even close.
The 460 is an entirely different machine from anything else I have ever owned, hands down.
I believe that if the cases are not swelling, I am safe. Now I need some stainless steel cases, so I can pump them up just a little bit higher...I believe the 460 will be hard to beat and soon I will invest in a chronometer so I can see what I am getting out of this indomitable revolver.I believe it's possible to punch it up to 2,600fps and 2,500foot-pounds of kinetic energy. Furthermore, I believe the specs are too tame by 25%, of course they are, they set the bar way low in order to make sure everyone is safe.
I just hope I don't blow myself up.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
I hope so too - but I get the impression you are dabbling a little incautiously from your descriptions.
Even X frames can be blown up - and the shooter too if unlucky.
Please play it safe.
(Are you reading other posts - or was my comment re Unique a waste of typing time?)
SnWnMe
Member
Ransom Rest and Lanyard will be a wise investment at this point 
454c
Member
I don't think wisdom fits in this mission of self destruction.
CrawdaddyJim
Member
Ummmm...... Six posts in one thread and started off with a "mall ninja" take on the 454/460 debate. Guess you have to start somewhere. Just a suggestion for Lichen. Google up some pictures of blown up wheel guns and blown up guns in general. But if you want to cut to the chase just pull the pin on a pineapple and don't throw it. Seriously man you need to read the manual first and then reread it. Dead is permanent. But if you don't want to go in that direction can I get you to video your tests? Should make for alltime high ratings on youtube.
Should make for alltime high ratings on youtube.
GSPKurt
Member
WHAT HE SAID!
Ratchet it down another 3 notches and work up SLOWLY!!
I took several guns down to a place by the rio grand between taos and espanola within sight of the massive jemez volcano today with a friend, and the 460 with my 50gr handloads...and a few hotter, at 53gr lil gun.
I am a bit wary of this wheelgun, because it's so dam powerful, and unfortunately it blasted thru the canvas sandbag I was using as a rest...shot grains of sand in my face...
But frankly, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the hornady lipstick rounds and my hotter handloads, except that my own punched much neater holes in the steel wheel rim we were using. The blast and recoil of this monster magnum are simply incredible, especially with my handloads of 53gr 250gr hornady hollowpoints...punches perfect holes that looklike drilled machine holes 3/4" diameter.
Will this X-frame really pop backwards in my face?
Remember Dick Casull scooping up a load fulla Unique, seating a bullet, and pulling it with a lanyard? His puny round did no damage to his 6-shot wheelgun; the 460S&W XVR X-Frame 5-shot stainless is considerably thicker and stronger. And the shells do not swell appreciably. It's a testament to the superiority of the mag. Even pushed as far as I will dare them, these rounds will not swell the shells with that powder.
I have searched the net far and wide to find anyone who has blown up a 460S&W...Nobody has. If I had the money and time, I'd load it up with the hottest mag rifle powder compressed and pull it with a lanyard repeatedly until it blew up just to see how much it can take. But unfortunatelt, I only can afford the one gun, and my one life. So where do I stop? And why do I stop it? There is already a MR 45-70 BFR; I doubt its construction is any more robust than the 460. Do I have any chance of recieving positive constructive input data from this forum, or do I have to do this experimentation all on my own?
I am a bit wary of this wheelgun, because it's so dam powerful, and unfortunately it blasted thru the canvas sandbag I was using as a rest...shot grains of sand in my face...
But frankly, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the hornady lipstick rounds and my hotter handloads, except that my own punched much neater holes in the steel wheel rim we were using. The blast and recoil of this monster magnum are simply incredible, especially with my handloads of 53gr 250gr hornady hollowpoints...punches perfect holes that looklike drilled machine holes 3/4" diameter.
Will this X-frame really pop backwards in my face?
Remember Dick Casull scooping up a load fulla Unique, seating a bullet, and pulling it with a lanyard? His puny round did no damage to his 6-shot wheelgun; the 460S&W XVR X-Frame 5-shot stainless is considerably thicker and stronger. And the shells do not swell appreciably. It's a testament to the superiority of the mag. Even pushed as far as I will dare them, these rounds will not swell the shells with that powder.
I have searched the net far and wide to find anyone who has blown up a 460S&W...Nobody has. If I had the money and time, I'd load it up with the hottest mag rifle powder compressed and pull it with a lanyard repeatedly until it blew up just to see how much it can take. But unfortunatelt, I only can afford the one gun, and my one life. So where do I stop? And why do I stop it? There is already a MR 45-70 BFR; I doubt its construction is any more robust than the 460. Do I have any chance of recieving positive constructive input data from this forum, or do I have to do this experimentation all on my own?
SnWnMe
Member
We have no constructive data to provide because... we've never tried loading em like that.
Good on you to push the envelope though. Just please take lots of care (and notes).
Good on you to push the envelope though. Just please take lots of care (and notes).
454c
Member
Quote:
***So where do I stop? And why do I stop it? ***
If you have to ask.....
***So where do I stop? And why do I stop it? ***
If you have to ask.....
454,
I have seen you respond with sanity to all things casull. However, casull didn't make 460.
I guess (educated) that I am the one willing to push the xOMGTABMFOvr. You seem like a very very safe-player.
Is there anyone willing to play beyond safe?
come on down
I have seen you respond with sanity to all things casull. However, casull didn't make 460.
I guess (educated) that I am the one willing to push the xOMGTABMFOvr. You seem like a very very safe-player.
Is there anyone willing to play beyond safe?
come on down
454c
Member
Whether it's a 22 Hornet or 600 Nitro, there's a safe and sane method to exploring the upper limits of a cartridge, any cartridge in any gun. You don't seem interested or concerned. I wish you the best of luck.
Lichen if you are for real, you need to seriously do some more learning about powder burn rates, pressure spikes, and the cumulative effects of extreme pressure and metal fatigue. You seem to have little appreciation for the fact that a few grains over max of a fast burning powder can spike the pressure exponentially. If you don't understand that statement (and your buying a pound of Unique for experimentation indicates that you might not), you have no business reloading at all until you learn more about it. As far as I am concerned, you ARE on your own if you want to "play beyond safe." Please don't abuse that gun then sell it to someone else. Keep it, destroy it, or at least have the cylinder replaced so that someone else doesn't pay the price for your "playing." You can over stress that cylinder to the point that a few more factory rounds at 65K psi might blow up the gun on you or someone else. Also bear in mind that an over limit load that did not blow your gun up on a cool day in Feb. may blow your gun up on a hot day in July. Please don't have some ususpecting friend or family member standing close by when you "play beyond safe." Your own life and the lives of others are nothing to play around with.
As many here have said, BE SAFE my friend, for your own sake and the sake of those close to you.
Roll Tide
As many here have said, BE SAFE my friend, for your own sake and the sake of those close to you.
Roll Tide
Here are some quotes from the guy who designed the gun, Herb Belin, S&W's handgun project manager:
"With the .500, the goal, obviously, was raw horsepower. When we put the .500 to bed, I'd already decided on my next step. And the .454 Casull was my target. The .460 Magnum was designed to be flat-shooting with a big-game perimeter of 250 yards--assuming a 10-inch kill circle and a mass of body hold. I think the .460 is a better choice for North American big game than the .500.
The substantial pressures developed by the .460 required some innovative engineering. It wouldn't do to simply stick smaller holes in the .500 and stamp ".460 S&W" on the barrel.
A mirror-smooth forcing-cone face helps prevent erosion from what Herb refers to in nonengineering terms as a "screamin' hot blast of gas." Any tool marks or imperfections could channel that hot blast up toward the topstrap, resulting in flame-cutting.
Another pressure concession: a firing-pin bushing the size of the .460's case head for additional support. In Herb's words, "It's a great big ol' circle" as opposed to the smaller bushing diameter of the .500 model. "
Reading that, it tells me they have already pushed the envelope just for this gun to shoot what it's rated for. Exceed that and you're playing with fire. Also, metal fatigue builds on a cumulative basis. Shoot overpressure loads and you may be able to fire 1, 5 or even 100 rounds before the 2nd., 6th., or 101st. round bursts something. Given the extreme pressures involved, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near when (not if) that happens.
Firing even a few overpressure loads may harm the metal to an extent that it will violently burst even with standard pressure loads at some point in the future.
Take the advice above and at least never sell that gun or use it in an area where others would be hazarded by the owner's foolishness. Otherwise, it's your life . . . as had been said "dead is permanent".
"With the .500, the goal, obviously, was raw horsepower. When we put the .500 to bed, I'd already decided on my next step. And the .454 Casull was my target. The .460 Magnum was designed to be flat-shooting with a big-game perimeter of 250 yards--assuming a 10-inch kill circle and a mass of body hold. I think the .460 is a better choice for North American big game than the .500.
The substantial pressures developed by the .460 required some innovative engineering. It wouldn't do to simply stick smaller holes in the .500 and stamp ".460 S&W" on the barrel.
A mirror-smooth forcing-cone face helps prevent erosion from what Herb refers to in nonengineering terms as a "screamin' hot blast of gas." Any tool marks or imperfections could channel that hot blast up toward the topstrap, resulting in flame-cutting.
Another pressure concession: a firing-pin bushing the size of the .460's case head for additional support. In Herb's words, "It's a great big ol' circle" as opposed to the smaller bushing diameter of the .500 model. "
Reading that, it tells me they have already pushed the envelope just for this gun to shoot what it's rated for. Exceed that and you're playing with fire. Also, metal fatigue builds on a cumulative basis. Shoot overpressure loads and you may be able to fire 1, 5 or even 100 rounds before the 2nd., 6th., or 101st. round bursts something. Given the extreme pressures involved, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near when (not if) that happens.
Firing even a few overpressure loads may harm the metal to an extent that it will violently burst even with standard pressure loads at some point in the future.
Take the advice above and at least never sell that gun or use it in an area where others would be hazarded by the owner's foolishness. Otherwise, it's your life . . . as had been said "dead is permanent".
Shawn Michael
Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2006
- Messages
- 131
Good post!
Good post!
The fact that aspect of this massive revolver had to be reworked for the insane pressures, the barrel burnout problems and the claims and decreasing accuracy down the road steered me away from the .460. These claims may be exaggerated or in some cases unfounded, but I tend to go with a "where there is smoke there is fire" attitude.
What makes the 460 so appealing is the "three guns in one" versitility but as one of our senior members points out
"with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly."
I dont have the knowledge base to dispute this, but it these are not the type of things that inspire confidence in a 1200$ purchase.
I also believe, based on what I have read and learned here, that the .460 really shines 1) with a long barrel 2) out at long ranges. For me long range and long barrel = rifle. The x-frames look and feel pretty balanced with 7 or so inches of barrel, but when you start with the super long 10 inch barrels it did not look or handle to my liking.
In terms of doing something really different from a 454 the edge does not seem that big. There is no doubt that there is more room to load it up, but reading the above post you tend to think where the 460 is now is pretty close to the limit. I think the 454 is just an amazing round.
"You might want to look again.The closest apples to apples comparison I've found so far is from Cor Bon.
454 - 7 1/2" brl. - 300gr.JSP - 1,650 fps
460 - 8.375"brl. - 300gr.JSp - 1,750 fps
454 - 7 1/2" brl. - 320gr. fppn - 1,600 fps
460 - 8.375" brl. - 325gr. bc - 1,650 fps
Keep an eye on the barrel length.The 460 has an edge of only 50-100 fps with a longer barrel.What do you think is gonna happen when you lose 3.375" of barrel length ?"
These things turned me away from the .460 which, due to its versitility just seemed like a much smarter buy than the .500
Good post!
The fact that aspect of this massive revolver had to be reworked for the insane pressures, the barrel burnout problems and the claims and decreasing accuracy down the road steered me away from the .460. These claims may be exaggerated or in some cases unfounded, but I tend to go with a "where there is smoke there is fire" attitude.
What makes the 460 so appealing is the "three guns in one" versitility but as one of our senior members points out
"with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly."
I dont have the knowledge base to dispute this, but it these are not the type of things that inspire confidence in a 1200$ purchase.
I also believe, based on what I have read and learned here, that the .460 really shines 1) with a long barrel 2) out at long ranges. For me long range and long barrel = rifle. The x-frames look and feel pretty balanced with 7 or so inches of barrel, but when you start with the super long 10 inch barrels it did not look or handle to my liking.
In terms of doing something really different from a 454 the edge does not seem that big. There is no doubt that there is more room to load it up, but reading the above post you tend to think where the 460 is now is pretty close to the limit. I think the 454 is just an amazing round.
"You might want to look again.The closest apples to apples comparison I've found so far is from Cor Bon.
454 - 7 1/2" brl. - 300gr.JSP - 1,650 fps
460 - 8.375"brl. - 300gr.JSp - 1,750 fps
454 - 7 1/2" brl. - 320gr. fppn - 1,600 fps
460 - 8.375" brl. - 325gr. bc - 1,650 fps
Keep an eye on the barrel length.The 460 has an edge of only 50-100 fps with a longer barrel.What do you think is gonna happen when you lose 3.375" of barrel length ?"
These things turned me away from the .460 which, due to its versitility just seemed like a much smarter buy than the .500
I know there is a way to examine the cylinder with infrared or ultraviolet to determine if there are stress cracks in the steel. But I am not certain where to go...I could surely find out, given the power of the net.
When the shell has expanded to fit tightly in the chamber, you have gone too far. Obviously, I tried a couple of cylinders worth of too hot rounds, and they swelled the shells so that they were hard to extract: but is it reasonable to assume this has compromised the integrity of the steel? Stainless is pretty tough stuff.
454, your terse impatient responses are unhelpful.
In determining the highest possible yield, it is imperative to test the limits. If a shell casing has expanded tightly in the chamber, the test has reached the limits.
I am looking for tech support here...but like with many other arenas, it is most likely I will have to spend money beyond what I have already invested to get collaborating data that will actually be helpful.
I would use the head-pounding action-figure over there if I thought it to be appropriate, but I don't. Just a little less bull would be helpful.
However, I have found several additions to this thread to be helpful, and please don't get me wrong. I have had 45 colt cases expand with 25gr of unique...I highly doubt this has caused cylinder degredation.
When the shell has expanded to fit tightly in the chamber, you have gone too far. Obviously, I tried a couple of cylinders worth of too hot rounds, and they swelled the shells so that they were hard to extract: but is it reasonable to assume this has compromised the integrity of the steel? Stainless is pretty tough stuff.
454, your terse impatient responses are unhelpful.
In determining the highest possible yield, it is imperative to test the limits. If a shell casing has expanded tightly in the chamber, the test has reached the limits.
I am looking for tech support here...but like with many other arenas, it is most likely I will have to spend money beyond what I have already invested to get collaborating data that will actually be helpful.
I would use the head-pounding action-figure over there if I thought it to be appropriate, but I don't. Just a little less bull would be helpful.
However, I have found several additions to this thread to be helpful, and please don't get me wrong. I have had 45 colt cases expand with 25gr of unique...I highly doubt this has caused cylinder degredation.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
We have a member who is known for pushing limits - it is either ''Clarke" or "Clark" .......... not sure how often he drops in but you could PM him and see if he has some thoughts.
And, BTW, if anyone here has a 460, take it to a 5/16" steel plate at 25 yards, pop a 454 casull round at it, and then try the hornady 460 200gr bullet. It will open your eyes to the answer to the question that started this thread.
454 casull vs. 460S&W? No contest. period. 454 casull is a wimp, not much better than a hot 45 colt. Try it on steel plate for yourself, and you will see. Use factory rounds, and your surprise will rebound against your conscience, flatter your imagination...and astound anyone who still thinks the 454 casull has anything to say at all in the world of modern handgun development.
The debate is pointless.
454, member name, challenge yourself to see the difference. You'll be surprised. By the way, maybe you could take a friend who owns a 460 out to the range, for comparison, since you don't own one.
How bout the eroded forcing cone?
454 casull vs. 460S&W? No contest. period. 454 casull is a wimp, not much better than a hot 45 colt. Try it on steel plate for yourself, and you will see. Use factory rounds, and your surprise will rebound against your conscience, flatter your imagination...and astound anyone who still thinks the 454 casull has anything to say at all in the world of modern handgun development.
The debate is pointless.
454, member name, challenge yourself to see the difference. You'll be surprised. By the way, maybe you could take a friend who owns a 460 out to the range, for comparison, since you don't own one.
How bout the eroded forcing cone?
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Could be the forcing cone will suffer, altho some erosion is IMO normal.
I have a .686 which has some very obvious flame cutting on the top strap but that seems self limiting as is also a degree of erosion on a forcing cone.
Hot gasses do have their effect!.
Not so sure I'd want to see real pitting tho so hard to tell here whether this is excessive or not without pictorial evidence.
This is 686 flame cutting - from lots (I mean lots) of heavy .357's from last owner. Gun now used for PPC and light loads and shoots a dream. I know this top strap but I daresay quite a bit of forcing cone erosion can be tolerated - as long as cyl gap does not enlarge to excess perhaps.
I have a .686 which has some very obvious flame cutting on the top strap but that seems self limiting as is also a degree of erosion on a forcing cone.
Hot gasses do have their effect!.
Not so sure I'd want to see real pitting tho so hard to tell here whether this is excessive or not without pictorial evidence.
This is 686 flame cutting - from lots (I mean lots) of heavy .357's from last owner. Gun now used for PPC and light loads and shoots a dream. I know this top strap but I daresay quite a bit of forcing cone erosion can be tolerated - as long as cyl gap does not enlarge to excess perhaps.
454c
Member
Helpful criticism is always unhelpful when it falls on the ears of those seeking a cheering squad.
If I'm ever attacked by a herd of screaming beer cans, I'll keep these test in mind but, I can't say that I'm gonna put on a blindfold and start grabbing powder and measurements to confirm the results.
If I'm ever attacked by a herd of screaming beer cans, I'll keep these test in mind but, I can't say that I'm gonna put on a blindfold and start grabbing powder and measurements to confirm the results.
Shawn Michael
Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2006
- Messages
- 131
I put this quote in my post above reguarding the 460. Does this seem accurate?
"with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly."
1) Does that make sense?
2) Is the same true for shooting 45 LC out of a 454 super redhawk? If so then the interchangeable rounds seem to have some drawbacks
"with 45 Colt ammo you will be wasting your time. Accuracy is marginal because the bullet is jumping a long distance from the shell to the forcing cone. And some people believe that if you shoot a steady diet of anything other then 460 ammo, you will start to get an erosion ring in the chambers and later 460 ammo wont extract properly."
1) Does that make sense?
2) Is the same true for shooting 45 LC out of a 454 super redhawk? If so then the interchangeable rounds seem to have some drawbacks
I shoot .45 LC and .454 regularly in mine. Just have to clean the cylinder well. Also helps to start with the longer cased rounds in an extended shooting session. I.e.: Start shooting .460's, then .454's then .45's.
The accuracy with .45 colt shells has been exceptional. I shoot cast bullets mostly and have not seen any leading.
After 1500 rounds, mixed with about 700 being .460, my forcing cone shows negligible erosion, there is a "line" on the top strap, but very faint - more of a powder residue deposit than flame cutting.
I just bought the dies to reload this rounds and have shot factory .460 so far - wanted to accumulate enough brass first. Will be loading the .454 down or .45 up for deer hereout though. The one I took with a full house .460 load ruined a lot of meat.
I really like the gun, the caliber and the concept. Whereas I would not buy a .500, this gun is very useful to me.
Regards,
Art
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