Kabar mythology

Status
Not open for further replies.

Slamfire

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
13,183
Location
Alabama
[QUOTE="Kabar mythology.

The list goes on and on.[/QUOTE]

Ooh! Kabar mythology. Tell me more.....

cbfrOYF.jpg

The top one is mine, the bottom one is a friend's. He acquired it directly from the daughter of a WW2 Navy veteran. The sailor spent his time patrolling off the Massachusetts coast during WW2, probably looking for German subs.
 
Camillus Cutlery Company was the first and largest supplier of knives at over 1,000,000 examples. Union Cutlery Company (of Olean, New York, United States), Robeson (ShurEdge) Cutlery Company, and the PAL Cutlery Company also manufactured Mark 2 knives under contract during WW2. Union Cutlery Company was the owner of the trademark "KA-BAR". A catchy name made them them famous compared to Camillus in spite of the greater production and issue.

Camillus, Utica Cutlery Co., and Conetta Cutlery Co. were the only military contract holders until about 1980 when Ontario was awarded a contract. Camillus made the bulk of the post WWII contract knives.

Union Cutlery changed their name to Ka-Bar to capitalize on the fame and most people just call these type knives Ka-Bars regardless of the manufacturer.

The variations between the manufacturers and at various times in the military contract knives keep collectors happy since it creates a lot of opportunity for sleuthing.

As to the characteristic fuller (blood groove is a silly term) seen on the knife, it is both a material saving technique, a way to lighten and balance the blade against the "stick" tang's lack of weight, and it improves blade strength for the weight. You see it earlier on Marbles knives which are considered to be the inspiration for the knife. Note the Ideal below.

4940910284_7db7962522_z.jpg
 
Last edited:
Good to see that you and your friend both have stacked leather handles on your knives.

I absolutely loathe stag handles on any knife! There is nothing appealing when it comes to stag. How and why this trend ever got started is beyond me and I wish it would go away.

Anyway, the knives look good and with a little maintenance, they should last for a long time.
 
I have two "KA-BARS": an Ontario purchased in the mid '70s from Atlanta Cutlery (along with a few USAF Survival knives over the years), and a Ka-Bar reissue from Atlanta Cutlery, sometime in the early '90s.

I seem to recall that one of the various Marble hunting knives was the starting point (forgive the pun), for the design of the USAF Survival Knife as well.
d6nVLOj.jpg
fZsKGxC.jpg
cOkvwIZ.jpg
t0yRFVi.jpg
 
Last edited:
There are details on butt caps (pined vs. peened), some variations on leather washers, guards and markings that collectors love.

The steel has been the same throughout on the MkII.

Lots of MkII inspired knives out there with different materials for blade, handle, guards and butt caps, but they aren't the same as the MkII with the history.
 
At one time I owned the smaller civilian Kabar, which I had on me to dress out a deer that day. It worked - any sharp knife would - yet even a rube like me could tell there were some finesse points that a more dedicated blade would have performed somewhat better. A bit - it's how you get dragged into knives, finding the blade shape and grind to be influential on its use. I'm still trying to gain more experience with field dressing and Mother Nature has continued to frustrate me often. I still look forward to the challenge.

Having been thru the 70s and later seeing the flea markets of the day filled with WWII and Korean surplus, "Kabars" were common. They were all rusty, and the leather handles and sheaths were commonly dried out and the rings shrunken onto the tang rattling loosely. It was a bit common to see them rehandled in various materials by the owner, often wood, which is the material used on the one I had. The blades were frequently sharpened on a grinder - manys the time you could wonder how youthful the last owner was doing that. But, you could buy a new one for $24 -

On the other hand after about 1980 there were imported field knives from Austria with the bayonet rings removed, in a plastic scabbard. And they were cheaper, $18. They would just slide into the strap on a LBE harness and were very secure upside down, a common way to wear a knife in some circles. And that's when you could start putting a date to the change in knives used in the field. Polymer became the standard there and led the introduction into pistols, which now dominates a lot of the field items in use. My son found a Camillus hunting knife in a nylon sheath, injected handle, and strangely enough, it's about as beat as an old Kabar. Yet it's the same one for sale in the sporting goods section at the big box store. Some things change, some stay the same.
 
Yep

Stacked leather washer handles are labor intensive even if you get die cut oval leather washers. Synthetics and composites are much less expensive in materials and labor, but a lot of folks still like the look and feel of those leather ovals compressed by the butt cap into a handle.
 
I carried a Ka-Bar in Nam. It was a fantastic tool, and if you ever did have to use it in H-2-H combat it would be very effective if you knew hot to knife fight, as in slash,slash, slash and then stab. I brought mine home and left the Corps with it. The DOD sent me a invoice for it. I’d never paid it. My son, and avid backwoods camper, has it know, and he loves using it. It is well balanced, strong blade that can be honed to be very. Very sharp.
 
I was a Navy Diver and we were issued "Kabar's" for our dive knives when I got to my first ship. The carbon steel and the leather handle needed a bit more care in the constant salt water exposure but they worked and held up fine. I still have it, a Camillus, but I did eventually put new leather on the handle. Funny thing, I hear that those fiberglass sheaths that it had are worth something as well. o_O
I tossed mine cause the cotton web strap rotted away... :(
 
There are details on butt caps (pined vs. peened), some variations on leather washers, guards and markings that collectors love.

The steel has been the same throughout on the MkII.

Lots of MkII inspired knives out there with different materials for blade, handle, guards and butt caps, but they aren't the same as the MkII with the history.
My KaBar is a Case.:evil:
 
Good brief history here - https://sword-site.com/thread/663/1219c2-combat-knife-usmc-mark

Designed:
23 November 1942

Manufacturers:
Camillus Cutlery Co.
Union Cutlery Co.
Pal Cutlery Co.
Robeson (ShurEdge) Cutlery Co.
Produced: 1943–present
Specifications
Weight 1.23 pounds (0.56 kg)
Length 11.875 inches (30.16 cm)
Blade length: 7 inches (18 cm)
Blade type: Bowie
Hilt type: Stacked leather washers
Scabbard/sheath Leather (USMC) or Plastic (USN)

In response to a specification requesting for a modern individual fighting knife design for the U.S. Marines, ordnance and quartermaster officials requested submissions from several military knife and tool suppliers to develop a suitable fighting and utility knife for individual Marines, using the U.S. Navy Mark 1 utility knife and existing civilian hunting/utility knives such as Western's L77 as a basis for further improvements. Working with Union Cutlery, USMC Colonel John M. Davis and Major Howard E. America contributed several important changes, including a longer, stronger blade, the introduction of a small fuller to lighten the blade, a peened pommel (later replaced by a pinned pommel), a straight (later, slightly curved) steel crossguard, and a stacked leather handle for better grip. The blade, guard, and pommel were coated with a non-reflective matte phosphate finish instead of the brightly polished steel of the original prototype. The design was given the designation of 1219C2. Notably, the 1219C2 used a thicker blade stock than that of the USN Mark 1 utility knife, and featured a stout clip point. After extensive trials, the 1219C2 prototype was recommended for adoption. The Marines' Quartermaster at the time initially refused to order the knives, but his decision was overruled by the Commandant. The Marine Corps adopted the new knife on November 23, 1942, still under the designation 1219C2.

The 1219C2 proved easy to manufacture; the first production run was shipped by Camillus Cutlery Co. on January 27, 1943. After the U.S. Navy became disenchanted with blade failures on the USN Mark 1 utility knife, the latter service adopted the 1219C2 as the US Navy Utility Knife, Mark 2. The Marine Corps in turn re-designated the 1219C2 as either the USMC Mark 2 Combat Knife, or simply the Knife, Fighting Utility. In naval service, the knife was used as a diving and utility knife from late 1943 onward, though the stacked leather handle tended to rot and disintegrate rapidly in saltwater.

The Marine Corps issued USMC Mark 2 combat/fighting utility knife throughout Marine forces, with early deliveries going primarily to elite formations. In late 1943 the 1219C2 replaced the Marine Raider Stiletto in service, a change welcomed by the marines of Col. Edson's 1st Raider Battalion, who found the Raider stiletto ideal for silent killing but of little use for anything else. As the knife went into large-scale production, the Marines issued the Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife to reconnaissance and engineering units and to any Marine armed with the pistol, M1 carbine, BAR, or crew-served machine gun (rifle-armed Marines were typically issued a bayonet). Marines were often issued knives with "U.S.N. Mark 2" markings when Navy-issued Mark 2 knives were all that was available. By 1944 the USMC Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife was issued to virtually any Marine in the combat branches who desired one, and was in use by Marine Corps close combat instructors for training new recruits. Unlike the prior Marine Raider stiletto, Marines were taught to use their new knife primarily as a slashing weapon in the initial phases of hand-to-hand combat.

As its new name implied, the "Knife, Fighting Utility" was designed from the outset as a dual-purpose knife: it was both an effective combat knife and a utility tool, well-suited to the type of jungle warfare encountered by Marines in the Pacific theater. This dual-purpose design resulted in some initial criticism of the pattern as being less than ideal for knife fighting, but combat experience of returning veterans as well as field reports from the battlefield soon dispelled any doubts about its combat effectiveness.
After the Second World War, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps continued to use the Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife. In addition to military contract knives, the knife was produced for the civilian market, and the pattern enjoyed some popularity as a general-purpose hunting and utility knife.

Manufacturers and the "KA-BAR" name.

Camillus Cutlery Co., the first manufacturer to supply the 1219C2 combat knife under contract, also produced the largest number of such knives, producing over 1 million examples marked "Camillus.N.Y." on the blade's ricasso before the war ended. Besides Camillus, the Union Cutlery Co., Robeson (ShurEdge) Cutlery Co., and the PAL Cutlery Co. all produced the Mark 2 combat/fighting utility knife under military contract during World War II. The Union Cutlery Company, the first company to manufacture a knife trademarked KA-BAR, was founded in 1897 as the Tidioute Cutlery Co. The Tidioute Cutlery Co. was dissolved and its assets taken over by Wallace R. Brown, who renamed the company Union Razor Co. which shortly thereafter became the Union Cutlery Company in 1909, headquartered in Olean, New York.

Of the four wartime manufacturers, Union Cutlery Co. was the sole wartime knife manufacturer to stamp all Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knives they made for the military with their "KA-BAR" trademark on the blade's ricasso, and was second only to Camillus in terms of production, producing about 1 million knives during the wartime contract. Because of this prominent trademark, Marines as early as 1944 began universally referring to their new combat knife as the "KA-BAR", regardless of manufacturer. The popular designation of the knife as the "KA-BAR" may also have resulted from contact with Marine Corps close combat instructors in San Diego, who appear to have used the term "KA-BAR" when training recruits in the skill of knife fighting.
After the end of World War II, Utica Cutlery Co., Conetta Cutlery Co., Camillus Cutlery Co., and (beginning around 1980) the Ontario Knife Co. all produced the Mark 2 under contract for the U.S. military. From approximately 1945-1952, Weske Cutlery Co. of Sandusky, Ohio purchased leftover and overrun parts from wartime Mark 2 knife contractors and assembled them into knives for commercial sale, polishing out the original manufacturer and military markings, and fitting them with ungrooved leather handles. Though W.R. Case made two prototype 1219C2 knives as part of a contract submission in 1942-43, no contract was ever awarded to Case for the production of military Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knives, either during or after World War II. In 1992, Case would release a modern commemorative of these prototypes, the Case XX USMC Fighting Utility Knife. The Case XX USMC Fighting Utility knife is actually manufactured for Case by Ontario Knife Co.

From 1923 until 1952, KA-BAR remained a legal trademark of Union Cutlery Company. However, in 1952 Union Cutlery renamed itself KA-BAR Cutlery Inc. in order to capitalize on widespread public recognition of the "KA-BAR" name and trademark, which had by then become synonymous with the well-regarded but confusingly titled USMC Mark 2 Combat Knife or Knife, Fighting Utility of the late war. While the company name changed, KA-BAR, Inc.'s headquarters are still located in Olean, New York. Cutco Corporation, manufacturer of Cutco Cutlery, acquired the company in 1996.

KA-BAR makes Army and Navy versions as well as USMC versions. They are the same as the Marine version except for different initials at the bottom of the blade and different symbols on the sheath. Marines today often give the blades, guards and pommels of their knives a few coats of non-reflective matte black spray paint to reduce reflected light and give them a little more protection against saltwater corrosion. Its moderate carbon and low chromium steel mixture allows the blade to hold an edge very well. The 1095 chrome-vanadium steel used in the blades of contemporary KA-BARs has a hardness of 56–58 HRC, while the guard and pommel are made from sintered 1095 carbon steel. Besides use as a fighting knife, the Mark 2 has proven its usefulness as a utility knife, used for opening cans, digging trenches, and cutting wood, roots, wire, and cable. In 1995, the design was updated with a tool steel blade, synthetic handle, and synthetic sheath marketed as "The Next Generation". As of June 2012 the "Next Generation" models have been discontinued.​
 
Never issued one, but been buying them in base exchanges over the years to give as gifts to family and friends, because everyone should own at least one.
x.jpg

I was a Navy Diver and we were issued "Kabar's" for our dive knives when I got to my first ship. The carbon steel and the leather handle needed a bit more care in the constant salt water exposure but they worked and held up fine. I still have it, a Camillus, but I did eventually put new leather on the handle. Funny thing, I hear that those fiberglass sheaths that it had are worth something as well.
So I never was issued a Ka-bar, but I did get a couple Mk 3s... (and the old square original Casio G-Shock)...
zzolddays.jpg
 
Kabar is one of my top favorite knife brands. I don't own any vintage models but I do own plenty of their newer stuff that pays homage to their WWII/Vietnam contract knives. I have at least 2 leather handled fighters, one being commemorative as well as a D2 fighter with synthetic handle. As well as a few of their folders. The design of Kabar is often imitated, rarely duplicated. I bought a OKC USN-1 knife several years ago to use when I didn't want to use a Kabar. I was quite disappointed and returned it same day it showed up.
 
I bought a USN MK2 KBAR for next to nothing from a surplus store in 1987 while in SF training for the final phase, where having a larger knife for the field was a good idea. At some point I traded it or gave it away. A few years ago, I found another MK2 in good condition I was able to buy for $50 at a flea market- purchased strictly out of nostalgic sake, and to put on top of my gun safe as a decoration, where I have several other US mil blades, helmets, etc, I have accumulated over the years. .
 
I guess Case can’t be noticed because they were never awarded a contract, made by Camillus however but here’s mine. I’m proud of it nonetheless. 5512-D4-FE-D022-4-F35-8-DE8-88-FF8-F30-F8-E2.jpg This is a period correct (Vietnam) Camillus USAF pilot survival knife. 5005-A024-4-FCF-4549-B6-C6-9494-C2854-AC0.jpg
 
Last edited:
818312E7-6DC8-4E10-AF7A-9C010CF7D219.jpeg Never in the military. But, I carried that Camillus for 15 years as a SWAT cop.

I don’t recall if I bought it black or dyed it myself.
 
I carried a Ka-Bar in Nam. It was a fantastic tool, and if you ever did have to use it in H-2-H combat it would be very effective if you knew hot to knife fight, as in slash,slash, slash and then stab..

A friend of mine is a Green Beret. Went through the selection and training when he was about 37. Damn near killed him.

He described the knife fighting technique being taught as:

“Be a mad monkey with a spike.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top