Kaboom in .40 Beretta

[riddleofsteel]

I went shooting today with a friend from work. He has invited me on a hog hunt on his family's land in October so it seemed the least I could do to provide a place to sight in rifles. After a rather uneventful rifle shooting session he suggested shooting handguns. I was shooting some hot handloads in my .45 Colt 4 5/8" Blackhawk. He was shooting a Glock 23 at another target. When he came back to the shooting table I noticed he was loading the mag with soft round nose lead 180 grain .40 S&W ammo. I casually mentioned that it is generally accepted that soft lead bullets in a Glock is NOT a good idea. He shrugged off my advice and pulled out a .40 S&W Beretta. This to he loaded with the soft lead round nose ammo. I was looking at the box while he was shooting. The ammo was made by Lancer Ammo. It had Winchester brass and soft round nose lead bullets that you could dent with your finger nail. After about ten rounds I heard my friend cry out in pain. He brought me the pistol and the bar that runs between the trigger and the sear was blown almost all the way off! Only the hard rubber grips were preventing it from dropping off. The small spring that works the bar was broken and my friend's hand was powder burned. When we freed the slide It ejected a shell that was a classic Kaboom. The ENTIRE unsupported area of the shell was peeled back.
My friend seemed uninformed of what a Kaboom was and how close he had just come to injury. I gently tried to explain that this was what I was trying to tell him about soft lead bullets in his G23. However, I had no idea that the Beretta would Kaboom with this ammo. I just checked the Lancer site and they stated thier brass in "remanufactured" but I did not see them listing the kind of soft lead 180 grain .40 bullets that blew up today.

 

[JohnKSa]

There's a section in my Beretta 9X series pistol manual which is basically a list of about 8 cautions and warnings about using lead bullets.

 

[mete]

Hard to say exactly why it happened . 'Remanufactured' is always suspect.Lead is not really bad as long as you frequently CLEAN the lead from the barrel.

 

[farad]

Kaboom with a .40? You don't say..

Yes remanufactured... that sounds like a good escape goat in this thread.. let's run with that..

 

[BluesBear]

I can't understand why anyone would load an unplated bullet in a .40 anyway.

With the price of plated bullets so low there are no french benefits in doing so.

 

[HSMITH]

Was probably nothing to do with the lead bullets, it was probably setback. 40 is absolutely unforgiving of setback. If it was a fully supported barrel it might have blown the barrel apart and ruined the slide.

40 is a good round, but terribly unforgiving of any errors in loading. It is not a caliber I would use gunshow reloads or anyone elses reloads in.

 

[Rockstar]

I'd just like to know how to cook an "escape goat?" Anybody got any recipes?? If you want to keep that goat from escaping, try a RadioFence with shock collar.

 

[Moonclip]

In addition to the "escape goat" I'd like to know about the "French benefits" with the lead bullets

I'm the last person that should be saying anything though as I'm the typo king! Reloads, especially from places that don't have a real good rep established on them like Black Hills, and especially lead reloads, I stay away from.

With the low price of new ammo like WWB or even Wolf for guns that were designed around steel case ammo like Makarovs, I see little use for commercial reloads. Even Black Hills reloads while quality, seem to run more than many quality new made offerings.

Anyone ever notice either that Ruger in the pistol manuals says running steel or aluminum cases through thier pistols is ok while reloads void any type of warranty? Ruger does not have a warranty really but they are very good about repairing their guns.

Not sure of the policy with Berettas, glad you friend was able to escape more serious injury, guns blow ups suck, I've been there, but with a Bernardelli and not a Beretta.

 

[albanian]

"With the price of plated bullets so low there are no french benefits in doing so."

We don't get French benefits?


I don't know enough about the whole KaBoom thing but it seems to happen with .40s more than any other caliber. It started with Glocks but now I have heard about them in CZ, Berettas, and other good guns. What is really going on here? Is it a .40 problem or are people just using bad ammo?

Why would anyone use lead bullets in an auto anyway? I reload some lead HBWCs for my .38s and .357s but I would never shoot anything but jacketed bullets in my autos. I say you get what you deserve if you shoot lead bullets in an auto. If you are doing the reloading and you have a Kaboom, please don't sue the gun maker for your misstake. :banghead:

 

[atblis]

Lead bullets

There's nothing wrong with shooting certain lead bullets in certain autos. They can be quite accurate. The wrong lead bullets, loaded incorrectly, in the wrong gun, well...

 

[Archie]

Without seeing anything, of course...

I have to agree with H Smith. Jam a bullet back into the case and one gets a higher pressure curve. .40 S&W is pretty much a jacked up pressure round to start.

Lead bullets in autopistols?
JohnKSa says,

There's a section in my Beretta 9X series pistol manual which is basically a list of about 8 cautions and warnings about using lead bullets.

Good to know. I have no use and no time for a pistol that cannot be loaded with lead bullets. Such a weapon is inferior in design and manufacture.

Moonclip,

Anyone ever notice either that Ruger in the pistol manuals says running steel or aluminum cases through thier pistols is ok while reloads void any type of warranty?

Right; no manufacturer has any control over 'reloads'. So how can one warranty use of an unknown? Even so, Ruger knows people reload all the time. To blow up a Ruger (revolvers anyway, I've never worked with their centerfire autos) with an overloaded cartridge requires determination and persistance. Anyone who has blown up a Ruger revolver by virtue of a bad reload should be avoided; you could be next.

Even so, as Moonclip alludes, I don't use other people's reloads. I know what I do; and if I blow myself up, I know to see about the matter. For the tally books, I still have all my fingers and both eyes.

I, too, am glad the gentleman was not injured. Despite my reply to JohnSKa's comment, Beretta has been a reputable manufacturer over time. I cannot believe the pistol was the weak link in this event.

The problem most likely lies with the ammunition - either an improperly assembled round, or a deficient case - for whatever reason.

 

[Rockstar]

Just for your viewing enjoyment, thought I'd post a pic of an "escape pig."

 

[Marshall]

What is really going on here? Is it a .40 problem or are people just using bad ammo?

Reloads or crap ammo.

 

[Newton]

Very few people suffer any serious or permanent injury from handgun KBs, at least from what I have heard/read/seen.

.40 KBs seem to happen a lot more than 9mm KBs, yet another reason I stick with 9mm.

You would need a small stick of C4 to blow the chamber in my 9mm USP Compact, cartridges however are always prone to rupture especially in unsupported chambers.

 

[meathammer]

The ENTIRE unsupported area of the shell was peeled back.

I don't understand this. I have a .40 Beretta and the case is fully supported in the chamber. I would agree with others - bullet setback.

After learning of the dangers of reloaded .40 (thanks THR!), I only shoot decent factory ammunition in mine.

--meathammer

 

[Marshall]

Yes remanufactured... that sounds like a good escape goat in this thread.. let's run with that..

So you're not a scapegoat for jokes about escape goats, I'm sure you were joking.

 

[riddleofsteel]

This particular Beretta had a very well defined cresent shaped cut out at the bottom of the barrel which is the essence of a partially unsupported chamber. The shell had a cresent shaped blow out that matched this cut out exactly.
The gun was brand new. He said less than 25 rounds fired. This day it blew in 10 rounds.

I pocketed a few rounds of the ammo. He was going to throw it away anyway. All of it I checked was in specs. I tried to chamber a few of them in my G23 to see if they setback on the feed ramp. No noticeable set back. I pulled several bullets and the powder looked a lot like AA #5 but with mystery powder it is hard to tell. Powder weights seemed reasonable for a 40 S&W load. Kinda a mystery to me but I did look up the Beretta owners manual online and it does give rather stern warnings about not shooting lead bullets. It says if you do shoot jacketed bullets after lead with out cleaning throughly first excessive pressures may result.

HUMMMMMMM......

 

[BluesBear]

Shhhh there's a Decaying Dead Elephant in the Room.

It's there.
We know it's there.
It's been there awhile.
Anyone else can see it's there,
Yet no one wants to talk about it.
And no one really knows what to do about it.

For some reason bullet setback seems to be a bigger problem in .40 S&W than it does in other pistol calibers. Or at least the consequences are more pronounced.

I recall having many setback problems with the original .45 acp Hydra-Shok ammo.
Back then feeding reliability of HP ammo was a big concern. So we manually cycled it through our pistols over and over. About 15% would set back on the second or third cycle. While the remaining 85% would just keep going like the Energizer Bunny.

I'd fire the setbacks and I noticed they ran about 15-25fps faster. I guess there wasn't enough pressure increase in .45 acp to hurt anything.

Now if you take the .40S&W which operates at a higher pressure, and chamber it in a pistol designed for a 9mm sized cartridge you have a situation in which you have no headroom or margin for error.

I think Glock for one realized this which is why gaston designed the .45GASP with a much thicker web. Not only will the thicker web hinder the bullet's ability to slip deeped into the case, it will also help contain the increased operating pressure.

Perhaps we should all rethink the .40S&W. Maybe it's time to adopt some different specifications for case manufacturing.
It wouldn't really be all that hard.

We did it years ago when the major ammo companies changed rimmed cases from folded head (balloon head) cases to solid head (web) cases.
Since that created a decreased case capacity loading data had to be changed.
As far as I know all went well.
Guns didn't start blowing up.
We all knew to reduce Elmer Keith's load a few grains in order to get them to fit into the new cases.
In fact the stronger brass enabled heavier loadings.

So perhaps it's time to modify the .40S&W.




Or maybe it isn't.

 

[USPCompact45]

Bluesbear, great post.


I do like the 45 gap and the 40sw. I would prefer the 45 gap if it was more available and cheaper.

 

[mete]

The 40S&W has been modified !! Any new cartridge has a learning curve .The 45acp is loaded to about 19,000 psi ,if you set back the bullet enough to double the pressure you get 38,000 which will not cause much of a problem. The 40 is loaded to 35,000 and if you double the pressure to 70,000 you will get a problem.Many PDs went from a revolver to the 40 and had no clue how to handle it .Poor training such as recycling the ammo again and again.That's called operator malfunction !! The cartridge is now 15 years old with a large percentage of PDs adopting it. Since then the case has been thickened and is harder and the ammo companies have seen that the case grips the bullet tighter .I've been using it since the start without problems but then I know what I'm doing !!It's a fine cartridge.

 

[USPCompact45]

I do like how tight the .40 is when used with the springfield xd.

 

[wingman]

The 40 is a fairly hot cartridge for a pistol round, I load for mine without problems, I load only plated bullets, never any over 155grains, powder
loading is always 80% or less of max, maintain my OAL, and crimp.
No problems in hundreds of rounds, don't own a glock or Beretta.

 

[Dionysusigma]

The 40 is a fairly hot cartridge for a pistol round...

But the .400 Cor-Bon, 10mm, .50AE, and Hirtenberger (sp?) aren't?

40 S&W is pretty much a jacked up pressure round to start.

Lead bullets in autopistols?
JohnKSa says,

There's a section in my Beretta 9X series pistol manual which is basically a list of about 8 cautions and warnings about using lead bullets.

Good to know. I have no use and no time for a pistol that cannot be loaded with lead bullets. Such a weapon is inferior in design and manufacture.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't plain exposed lead an older concept than jacketed rounds? What, if any, are the benefits of pure lead versus jacketed? If jacketed isn't better, then why are 98% (minus those who like to cast their own and CAS shooters) of bullets now jacketed in some capacity? Why is that?

If lead-only worked better, jackets would've gone the way of the Tround. I have no use and no time for a bullet that cannot be loaded in my guns. Such a projectile is inferior in design and manufacture. :banghead:

 

[Shootcraps]

It's there.
We know it's there.
It's been there awhile.
Anyone else can see it's there,
Yet no one wants to talk about it.
And no one really knows what to do about it.....<snip>

"Holy Mother-of-Pearl, Batman! Look who just posted on this thread!"

"Is it Catwoman?"

"No"

"Is it The Riddler?"

"No"

"Then who is it, Robin?"

"It's our most dangerous foe. The Voice of Reason!!"

 

[ny32182]

Increased pressure is the price you pay for increased performance.

The inability of some to use it correctly and/or safely doesn't constitute an emergency on everyone else's part.

This is the first time I've heard Lancer associated with a negative event... many people on the Sigforum have switched entirely to (jacketed) Lancer for practice ammo, reporting excellent all around results over most factory FMJ. WWB does just fine for me though.