Kachok's Caliber Guide

[Kachok]

I once calculated that if the most common cartridge for elk is 30-06, then scaling off the size of the cartridge and the size of the animal, the .223 would be too big for any deer.

How do you figure that one? A 30 caliber with a standard twist can shoot bullets up to 250gr while a standard 223 1:9 twist can only handle up to 75gr tops. Whitetail can reach up to 500 lbs and elk max out at around 900lbs. Even if you went strictly off of energy figures I fail to see how you came to that conclusion seeing as the 30-06 is more then twice as powerful as any 223 by any measurement. I would never be one to advocate the use of 223s on deer, I have seen it successfully done but given the tracking involved after the fact I was not impressed and won't be doing it myself.

 

[Clark]

Kachok
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark
I once calculated that if the most common cartridge for elk is 30-06, then scaling off the size of the cartridge and the size of the animal, the .223 would be too big for any deer.
How do you figure that one? A 30 caliber with a standard twist can shoot bullets up to 250gr while a standard 223 1:9 twist can only handle up to 75gr tops. Whitetail can reach up to 500 lbs and elk max out at around 900lbs. Even if you went strictly off of energy figures I fail to see how you came to that conclusion seeing as the 30-06 is more then twice as powerful as any 223 by any measurement. I would never be one to advocate the use of 223s on deer, I have seen it successfully done but given the tracking involved after the fact I was not impressed and won't be doing it myself

This says bull elk average 710 pounds and cows 500 pounds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk

This says mule deer bucks weight from 150 to 300 pounds and does 125–175 pounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_deer

To compare and avergage with a range, I can average the range.
The mule bucks average 225 pounds.
The white tail bucks average 210 pounds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_deer

So if we compare the mule buck to the bull elk we have 225 lb/710 lb = 32%

If we compare the 223 to the 30-06:
55 gr Federal 1282 foot pounds
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=207
150 gr Federal 2820 foot pounds
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=16

1282 fp / 2820 fp = 45%

ergo the 223 is overkill for mule deer.

Don't think so?
Go back to my post about how much rifle you can carry.

 

[Kachok]

Clark, again that is working under the assumption that caliber, mass, sectional density and momentum have nothing to do with it, which is a notion that no ballistics expert I know takes seriously. The energy only formula was debunked long ago. Again not saying that the 30-06 is the ideal elk rifle, or that the 223 will not harvest a deer, but to compare the two based solely on energy is flawed from the start. I posted a really neat comparison of a BG test of a bonded 55gr 223 and a 240gr JHP 44 magnum on my thread "The complex science of terminal ballistics" The 223 clearly expended the majority of it's energy in the first few inches of penetration and only made a pencil thin wound through the rest of it's 15" while the 44 magnum despite it's lower energy made a very wide wound canal all the way through a standard 16" block and 8" into the poly backstop, clearly the more effective of the two by any standards. Energy figures are great but they are a long way from telling the whole story

 

[Pete D.]

Yea.

Nice. A decent primer.
Also nice, in this day and age, to see that there are people who know the difference between caliber and cartridge.
Pete

 

[1948CJ2A]

I might cheat a little and lump ballistic twins together because in the real world there is no real difference in flight or on target between a 260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmore or a 7mm-08 and 7x57.

:banghead: I'll argue that the 7mm-08 & 7mm Mauser are NOT ballistic twins all day long. Just as the 243 Win. and 6mm Rem. are NOT ballistic twins. I started a thread on this a month ago here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=657771&page=2&highlight=7x57

 

[Kachok]

Sorry to step on your toes there, but my reloading manual has them running awful close in performance, I'll look into it further.

 

[1948CJ2A]

Sorry to step on your toes there, but my reloading manual has them running awful close in performance, I'll look into it further.

Check out that post that I wrote and all the contributions from other members. Hopefully that will shed a little light. In the grand scheme a lot of cartridges are very close but in those instances the minor differences are what makes each unique, thus deserving of an individual write-up as you're pondering.

You didn't step on my toes. I'm just sensitive to that particular generalization because its not valid.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I'll just add one classification.

1. .458 and up, the .458 WM is the lightest of the "stopping" calibers also the lightest of the "heavy" calibers for DG. To be considered a true stopper the round needs to be at least .458 in diameter and fire a minimum 500 gr bullet and produce a minimum of 5,000 Ftlbs energy. the .458 WM just barely qualifies. Most truly experienced elephant hunters agree that to reliably turn an elephant charge your minimum does up to a .50 cal firing 570 gr bullet and producing something north of 6,000 Ftlbs AKA a .500 NE or greater.

 

[Kachok]

There is the big bore insight I was looking for, thanks H&H I know the pecking order in the .458 caliber is .45-70, 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott and the beastly 460 Wby magnum, are there any other key players? Having seen how fierce it's recoil is I often wounder which end of the 460 Weatherby is more dangerous LOL

 

[H&Hhunter]

I know the pecking order in the .458 caliber is .45-70, 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott and the beastly 460 Wby magnum, are there any other key players? Having seen how fierce it's recoil is I often wounder which end of the 460 Weatherby is more dangerous LOL

You pretty much covered it. .458 WM, .458 Lott, .450 Rigby/.450 Dakota, .460 Bee. Other than on the net the .45-70 pretty much a non player in the real life world of DG as is the .460 Bee,there simply are not very many .460's running around Africa same for the .45-70.

.458 WM, 500 gr bullet @ about 2100 FPS + or -
.458 Lott, 500 gr bullet @ about 2250 FPS + or -
.450 Rigby 500 gr bullet @ about 2450 FPS + or -

Then we have either end of the bell curve

.45-70 500 gr bullet @ about 1550 FPS + or -
.460 bee 500 gr bullet @ about 2650 FPS +!!!

IMO the the .460 Bee is simply to much of a good thing and it's only available in the PF Mark V which is not held in high regard amongst PH's in Africa.

 

[Kachok]

Would I be correct in saying that the interchangeable 458 Lott/458 win mag (think 357 mag/38 specal) are the most popular of the big bores in Africa? I see much more talk about them then the 450 NE, 450 Rigby or either of the 460s.
Any feedback on the .416s? Are they highly useful or do they suffer from the too big until not enough syndrome.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Kachok,

Yep you see a bunch of .458's Wm and Lotts. You also see quite a few .470 NE's. The .450 Rigby is as rare as hens teeth because nobody builds a factory rifle in it. Same as the .450 Dakota which is only available in the highly expensive Dakota M-76.

.416's are possibly the best client rifle there is for DG hunting and quite a few PH's use them as well in both Rigby and Rem. With guys who hunt in thick jesse country where elephants are abundant I am seeing more and more moving to the various .50's .505. 500 Jeff and the .500 NE.

 

[Loosedhorse]

.458 Lott, 500 gr bullet @ about 2250 FPS + or -

I'm sure you're aware, but it bears mentioning that you can also get a 550 gr Woodleigh bullet for .458 Lott (or .450 Rigby). Double Tap loads it (either SP or "solid"), and claims just under 2200fps out of a 25 inch barrel.

My barrel is 22.5" and I'm hoping for 2050. Once I get some chrono results, I'll let you know. Given the effectiveness of the 500gr bullets (especially the TSX), I'm not sure the 550 is "needed" for anything except possibly as a solid for elephant.

I'll just add one classification.

Kachok ends at .375, and your category starts with .458...

Where do we put the lovely .416s?

BTW, the large case is the good and bad about the .416 Rigby. It allows a 400gr bullet to move at 2400 fps at relatively low chamber pressure; but it also limits magazine capacity.

It is a legendary cartridge. People love to argue whether it or the .375 is better for lion; for anything larger than lion, there is no argument.

 

[H&Hhunter]

H&H wrote above....

.416's are possibly the best client rifle there is for DG hunting

I think that answers the .416 question pretty clearly. It's a pretty fair stopping rifle as well as long as elephant at close range aren't in the mix.

The various .375's are light "medium" rounds and the various .416's/.404's/425/.400's are heavy "medium" rounds. I love my .404 Jeffery which of course is actually a .423 Diameter but does exactly what the venerable old .416 Rigby does when you use it out of a modern action. I get a 400 gr bullet right at 2400 fps. Tons smack down for not to horrible recoil a perfect mix for the client hunter on thick skinned DG.

 

[Loosedhorse]

So, .416 gets its own category? Maybe squeeze the .400 Tembo, .400 H&H, and .450/.400 NE in there, too? Or do we roll them all in with the "good for hunting dangerous game, not so good for stopping them" .375s?

 

[H&Hhunter]

Or do we roll them in with the "good for hunting dangerous game, not so good for stopping them" .375s?

Right in between the two.

Maybe squeeze the .400 Tembo, .400 H&H, and .450/.400 NE in there, too?

Yep I attempted to cover them all with this statement.

and the various .416's/.404's/425/.400's are heavy "medium" rounds.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Fair enough. I was confused because you said "one classification" and then talked about .458s and up, and .416s. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[H&Hhunter]

The .400's are a funny group of beasts in some ways they are closer to the .375's and in other they are more like stopping rifles. They have the ability to reach out and do some medium range work but not as great as a .375 for range work and they also are pretty good stoppers just not what the various big .450's and up will do.

If I lived in Africa in DG country and could only have one rifle it might very well be a .416 of some kind. It's a rifle you can pot light to heavy critters with at 200 or even 300 yards and then reliably take on buff at close range. It's even a fine elephant hunting round it's just not my first choice for stopping a determined charge on an elephant at close range.

See this thread for more on why I have this opinion on .416's and elephant.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=662249

 

[Loosedhorse]

If I lived in Africa in DG country and could only have one rifle it might very well be a .416 of some kind.

I get that. I have used a .458 on buffalo, but as much as I like that gun, it's not one I really trust at 200 yards. My .375 I trust at 300...but I didn't really want to use it on buffalo.

A 200-250yard .416 might be the one-gun solution for almost all occasions. Maybe I'll get a chance to acquaint myself with one, one day.

 

[Kachok]

Interesting how the 375 is considered to puny to be an suitable buffalo rifle, yet beck in the day Roy Weatherby hunted them with his 257. And 416 is the bare bones for elephant yet Walter "Kilimanjaro" Bell harvested over a thousand of them with tiny 6.5mm and 7mm rifles. Now mind you to call Bell an excellent marksman is a huge understatement, no doubt he could give the greats like Annie Oakley, Jelly Bryce, and Carlos Hathcock a run for their money.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Interesting how the 375 is considered to puny to be an suitable buffalo rifle

I think that the .375 is far from puny. But, as H&H well points out, there's a big difference between a hunting rifle (a client rifle) for DG, and a "stopping" rifle (a PH or guide rifle) for DG. A .375 is an adequate hunting rifle for buffalo and elephant; and it's considered (I believe) a fine "stopper" for lion.

I've been told that, for buffalo, even though .375 works and works fine, the .416 hits with more authority; the .458s even more; and the .500s more. For me, once I witnessed the effect of a .458 on buff, I had no more interest in using my .375 one one. Just me.

 

[Kachok]

While I never claimed to be an authority on Cape Buffalo I do happen to be well read on terminal ballistics, and the fact that the buffalo can charge after a clean double lung shot from something the size and power of a 375, 416 or even a 458 speaks volumes to how tough and aggressive they are. Most people I know who hunt large American bison or Alaskan bear (who get just as big) don't use anything larger then a 338 cal.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Interesting how the 375 is considered to puny to be an suitable buffalo rifle, yet beck in the day Roy Weatherby hunted [STRIKE]them[/STRIKE] one with his 257. And 416 is the bare bones for elephant yet Walter "Kilimanjaro" Bell harvested over a thousand of them with tiny 6.5mm and 7mm rifles.

Fixed it for you.

I don't consider the .375 to be to puny to be a suitable buff rifle I've killed a buff with a .375 with no issues at all. It is not my first choice if things go bad though I have full confidence that I could stop most buff and elephant charges with a .375 if things were work in my favor. o You just don't have any margin for error like a heavy gives you.

Ole Roy's buff with a .257 was a one off stupid human trick. But it's not that big of a deal to slip a small caliber bullet into a buffs lungs and wait for him to die it's done all the time you just have to pick your shot and your terrain and cover very carefully. try putting one on the ground when it's pissed and coming at you wit a .257 Bee. I'll even pay for the camera man. That will be a Youtube moment if there ever was one.

Bell and his .275 and his .256 Manlicher.... Everybody like to bring up the ole Bellster. What folks always seem to forget is that Bell himself used a .400NE for follow up in thick cover he recommends it one of his books. The other thing that is always overlooked when the Bell comes up is that his rifles never were considered adequate for elephant. The reason that there were minimum caliber laws put into place in Africa was the throngs of dead and maimed sportsmen being sent back to blighty ole England in various states of destruction and decomposition due the attempted use of light rifles on heavy dangerous game. The mean average success rate was not good in the light rifle heavy game department.

Pondoro said it best about Bell and his light rifles on elephant and other DG. In word he said bell was bloody lucky not to have been killed.

 

[Kachok]

Well I would never be so silly as to try a 257 anything on a 1 ton mass of muscle and mean like that. On dangerous game I like the stoutest bullet I can place with a high level of accuracy so quarterbores don't make that list for me.....not even close. I don't believe that Bell's success was luck, one or twice could be luck but harvesting 1,000 large dangerous animals with a small caliber and living to tell the tale is crazy marksman skills, better then I can shoot that is for sure.

 

[Loosedhorse]

On dangerous game I like the stoutest bullet I can place with a high level of accuracy

Amen, brother.

Hey, I like challenge. If I ever hunt buff again, it'll be with a handgun.

But I'll expect to hunt hard and close, and only to fire on a perfect broadside. And my PH won't be carrying a handgun.