Keep Your Trigger Covered

[Plan2Live]

While I'm sure this post will draw some dark humor and references to Darwinian theory, my intent in posting is sincere. The details are not perfectly clear at this point, but it seems obvious to me this is a case where someone was carrying a pistol without that pistol being in an appropriate holster with the trigger covered. Unfortunately, it resulted in this person's demise. So, if you are going to carry a loaded pistol, and you value your life and/or body parts, you might want to carry in an appropriate holster with the trigger covered.

Here is a link to the article. https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article270037762.html

Here is a synopsis from the published article:
"South Carolina police say a man died after the gun he was carrying discharged into his groin while he was making a U-turn in his car. A 35-year-old driver in North Charleston was found dead early Tuesday after his vehicle went off the road and struck a parked car in a parking lot, local outlets reported.
Police say the incident occurred around 6:20 a.m. near the intersection of Rivers Avenue and Dalton Street. A report from the North Charleston Police Department said the driver was attempting a U-turn on Rivers Avenue when he left the roadway, TV station WCBD reported. First responders to the scene “found a wound in the victim’s groin area consistent with a gunshot,” the report said."

As a side note, while South Carolina is a Shall Issue state, you are allowed to have a loaded handgun in your vehicle without having a concealed carry permit. Getting a concealed weapons permit (CWP) in South Carolina requires classroom training which includes segments relating to proper carry methods and firearms safety, The article does not say whether the deceased had a concealed weapons permit or not.

 

[JR24]

That certainly does seem to be wise advise.

 

[aaaaa]

Sure a lousy way to go. Wonder what pulled the trigger, was he too close to the steering wheel, and the extra movement for a U-turn his finger caught the trigger through his pants? Or maybe he was holding a pen while turning the wheel.

 

[Tallball]

I'm pretty sure that my odds of shooting myself by accident because I don't have my carry piece in a holster, or because I'm moving it around from one pocket to another or something like that, are far greater than my odds of being shot by someone else.

Yeah, keep it in a holster and don't mess with it. When you get home, put it away carefully and don't mess with it. Much better to pay $30 for a holster and use it, rather than bleed out in a parking lot after you shoot yourself in the groin.

 

[JR24]

I'm pretty sure that my odds of shooting myself by accident because I don't have my carry piece in a holster, or because I'm moving it around from one pocket to another or something like that, are far greater than my odds of being shot by someone else.

Yeah, keep it in a holster and don't mess with it. When you get home, put it away carefully and don't mess with it. Much better to pay $30 for a holster and use it, rather than bleed out in a parking lot after you shoot yourself in the groin.

Yes, it’s interesting how often folks feel the need to mess with their CCW during any given day.

In particular the carry gun picks taken in the persons lap in their car make me cringe.

Personally, my CCW goes in the holster from the safe in the morning and doesn’t leave it till it goes back in the safe at night. Holster has a clip if I need to leave it in the car to go to a gun free zone.

 

[redcon1]

Included in the list of things that I will never do is: carry a loaded firearm pointed at my d---.

 

[nofendertom]

I have seen, at gun shows or LGS, people spend over a thousand dollars on a handgun, then shop around for a cheap ass ten dollar holster.
Get a PROPER holster, DUMMY !

 

[Slamfire]

I also consider this a matter of “risk normalizing” : where risky or dangerous behaviors or practices gradually become acceptable over time. The shooting society has become very comfortable with firearm ignition systems that are very easy to activate. In fact, there are Cults created around this, one I call Cult Cocked and Locked for the 1911 cocked and locked fanatics.



the only thing keeping this pistol from firing is sear integrity



the thumb safety is a sear blocking safety, not a hammer blocking safety. The sear breaks, orthe notch fails, and that hammer goes down.



It used to take an unusually set of circumstances to shoot your self with a double action revolver.



and the double action semi pistols were equally hard to shoot your self with, though with effort, I am sure someone did. This pistol has a decocker, then the first shot downrange requires a long, and heavy double action pull.



But the combat commando types have to have high capacity pistols, and they complained loud and fiercely about a long trigger pull for the first shot. The market responded by making mechanisms that are even easier to shoot yourself with.

Perhaps the best known example, a Glock mechanism




and this is the safety



When loaded, these pistols are unsafe outside of their holster as it takes very little effort to pull the trigger and fire the weapon. Holster design and construction is very important. The holster has to be rigid enough not to press on the trigger mechanism. SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges! Holster design has to have the trigger covered, it is not like the days of Cowboy holsters where the trigger guard was open. Nope, holsters have to be smooth sided and cover the trigger guard or the booger hook will accidentally trip off the trigger. Even holstering a striker fired gun as gotten to be hazardous . Enough Glock owners have shot themselves when a shirt sleeve gets coiled around the trigger that there is a device to make Glocks safe to holster: the Glock Gadget

The shooting community has moved from a time period when a firearm ought to be safe by itself, to accepting the idea the holster makes the firearm safe. Then, if the holster fails, its the holster's fault, not that of the gun. I think this is madness.





You know, there are good reasons we don’t give little children nuclear weapons to play with, as kids really don’t understand risk, and the consequences of an accidental nuclear event are too great.


Little Timmy must have been playing with Dad's razor! Too bad about the island.



However when it comes to firearms, the more dangerous the mechanism is to the owner, the faster they fly off the shelf.

 

[AJC1]

I also consider this a matter of “risk normalizing” : where risky or dangerous behaviors or practices gradually become acceptable over time. The shooting society has become very comfortable with firearm ignition systems that are very easy to activate. In fact, there are Cults created around this, one I call Cult Cocked and Locked for the 1911 cocked and locked fanatics.

View attachment 1121306

the only thing keeping this pistol from firing is sear integrity

View attachment 1121307

the thumb safety is a sear blocking safety, not a hammer blocking safety. The sear breaks, orthe notch fails, and that hammer goes down.

View attachment 1121308

It used to take an unusually set of circumstances to shoot your self with a double action revolver.

View attachment 1121309

and the double action semi pistols were equally hard to shoot your self with, though with effort, I am sure someone did. This pistol has a decocker, then the first shot downrange requires a long, and heavy double action pull.

View attachment 1121310

But the combat commando types have to have high capacity pistols, and they complained loud and fiercely about a long trigger pull for the first shot. The market responded by making mechanisms that are even easier to shoot yourself with.

Perhaps the best known example, a Glock mechanism


View attachment 1121311

and this is the safety

View attachment 1121312

When loaded, these pistols are unsafe outside of their holster as it takes very little effort to pull the trigger and fire the weapon. Holster design and construction is very important. The holster has to be rigid enough not to press on the trigger mechanism. SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges! Holster design has to have the trigger covered, it is not like the days of Cowboy holsters where the trigger guard was open. Nope, holsters have to be smooth sided and cover the trigger guard or the booger hook will accidentally trip off the trigger. Even holstering a striker fired gun as gotten to be hazardous . Enough Glock owners have shot themselves when a shirt sleeve gets coiled around the trigger that there is a device to make Glocks safe to holster: the Glock Gadget

You know, there are good reasons we don’t give little children nuclear weapons to play with, as kids really don’t understand risk, and the consequences of an accidental nuclear event are too great.

must have given a great shave! Too bad about the island.

View attachment 1121313

However when it comes to firearms, the more dangerous the mechanism is to the owner, the faster they fly off the shelf.

The continued argument about a few tenths of a second to rack a slide vs the daily risk of discharge makes my head hurt. I do as I did in the military and change my state of readiness based on the perceived threat level. Rolling down the 240 in Memphis at midnight on my way home I'm condition one for sure. Walking around home depot at noon I'm condition 4.

 

[aaaaa]

I have seen, at gun shows or LGS, people spend over a thousand dollars on a handgun, then shop around for a cheap ass ten dollar holster.
Get a PROPER holster, DUMMY !

My pocket holster is a flap of cardboard covered in duct tape! Been pocket carrying this way since July.

 

[nofendertom]

Lest we not forget the Kahr, where the trigger must be pulled through its full stroke (like a revolver) before it will fire.

 

[Slamfire]

A shooting bud let me shoot both of these CZ 75's. They are nice pistols, very comfortable grips, and were a bit of a surprise.

This one is cocked and locked only. You cannot lower than hammer on a round in the chamber, such as I can with my SIG P220. The pistol is carried cocked and locked, or nothing in the chamber.



The quick draw types have zero desire to have an empty chamber, as the fastest man always wins. It must be true, they made a movie about it. This is how combat is supposed to be. The combatants are face to face, it is a fair fight, and the fastest man always wins.




this one was also surprising.



With the hammer at full cock (nothing in chamber!) I pressed the safety. The hammer goes to half cock. There is no safe way to lower the hammer all the way down. I am lery of half cock safeties as I believe they wear, and can be sheared with a hard hit. As I recall the pistol had a firing pin block, but I could not get into the itty bitty details of the mechanical design.

But clearly, Cult Cocked and Locked will not purchase pistols unless they are optimized for quick draw games. And so the market responds. No doubt, with a round in the chamber, none of these pistols is safe outside of its holster.

 

[SwampWolf]

The shooting society has become very comfortable with firearm ignition systems that are very easy to activate.

"Familiarity breeds contempt" and contemptuous behavior when handling a firearm can have dire consequences.

 

[trackskippy]

No doubt, with a round in the chamber, none of these pistols is safe outside of its holster.

Thats sorta the whole point isnt it, and it doesn't matter what the gun is.

Gun handling is all part of carrying a gun, or just using one in general. Knowing the ins and outs of what it is you choose to carry/use is just a part of that.

You should know the gun you carry intimately, and you should use the proper gear with it. A good belt and holster goes so much deeper than just holding the gun.

And if youre going to carry a gun, carry it loaded. Dont fool yourself into thinking you dont need to carry with a round chambered and that you'll have time to take care of that. If you doubt that, get a buddy and try it out. I think youll be surprised at what the reality is.

 

[JTQ]

This one is cocked and locked only. You cannot lower than hammer on a round in the chamber, such as I can with my SIG P220. The pistol is carried cocked and locked, or nothing in the chamber.

View attachment 1121354

That gun is a DA/SA gun. It is designed to be carried with the chamber loaded and the hammer down. There isn't a decocker though like the other CZ model pictured or your P220. You can choose not to carry it with the hammer down, but it is designed to be carried in double action mode, with the chamber loaded and the hammer down.

 

[JTQ]

... such as I can with my SIG P220.

With the hammer at full cock (nothing in chamber!) I pressed the safety. The hammer goes to half cock. There is no safe way to lower the hammer all the way down. I am lery of half cock safeties as I believe they wear, and can be sheared with a hard hit. As I recall the pistol had a firing pin block, but I could not get into the itty bitty details of the mechanical design.

If you notice when you decock your SIG P220, the hammer also doesn't go all the way down either. It is a safety feature of the SIG. It keeps the hammer off the firing pin. Likewise with the CZ decock, it does much the same. You can pull the trigger on the SIG P220 and lower the hammer all the way down, but that's not how SIG wants you to operate the gun, much like CZ wants you to use the decocker on their decocker models.

 

[AJC1]

The barreta i carried in the service was da/sa and is the standard by which I received all training. I don't own one but those features resonate with the years of interactions I've had with it. Comfort familiarity and practice all means I should probably have one.

 

[bigger hammer]

View attachment 1121306

the only thing keeping this pistol from firing is sear integrity ...

the thumb safety is a sear blocking safety, not a hammer blocking safety. The sear breaks, orthe notch fails, and that hammer goes down.

View attachment 1121308

I'm no expert on these matters but isn't the second set of hooks (the "half cock" position) on the hammer supposed to prevent the gun from firing if the sear or the first set of hooks fails?

That's how it worked when my stepfather's 1911 had the sear fail. (Note: he had thinned the sear down to a shadow of its former self in his amateur efforts to improve the trigger).

 

[JohnKSa]

But the combat commando types have to have high capacity pistols, and they complained loud and fiercely about a long trigger pull for the first shot.

It wasn't nearly as much about the long trigger pull as it was the fact that there were two distinct trigger pulls, the first one long, the rest of them short SA. The gun companies initially responded with true DAO designs where EVERY pull was long. Until the striker-fired pistols came along, the true DAOs were pretty popular in LE.

 

[Archie]

I first carried a gun for a law enforcement agency beginning late 1977. We were carrying revolvers per instruction manual. The fashionable holster did not have a covered trigger. Covered tiggers more or less began in the six year span I worked for that agency. During that time, I know of one LEO shooting himself. It happened to a local police officer carrying a COVERED holster on the occasion of reholstering his sidearm.

That seemed to set the rule. People with open holsters would have an expected discharge when drawing, sometimes injuring themself. Those with covered triggers would have an unexpected discharge - at about the same rate as the open holster people - on the holstering stroke and nearly always shoot themselves somewhere. (Typically in the leg or foot.) As no surprise, all unintentional discharges were embarrassing.

As most people, I never did have a problem.

To my rather suspicious eye, the same cause in both types of unintended discharge was having one's finger on the trigger (at the wrong time). To me that is a matter of competence, not gizmos.

 

[WrongHanded]

Thats sorta the whole point isnt it, and it doesn't matter what the gun is.

Gun handling is all part of carrying a gun, or just using one in general. Knowing the ins and outs of what it is you choose to carry/use is just a part of that.

You should know the gun you carry intimately, and you should use the proper gear with it. A good belt and holster goes so much deeper than just holding the gun.

And if youre going to carry a gun, carry it loaded. Dont fool yourself into thinking you dont need to carry with a round chambered and that you'll have time to take care of that. If you doubt that, get a buddy and try it out. I think youll be surprised at what the reality is.

Exactly right!

Drawing a gun and getting a shot off (which actually predictably hits the mark!) is difficult enough that people have to work at it. Doing it fast enough to not get stabbed or bludgeoned is harder still. Add racking the slide from the draw, and the odds of success go down even more.

And whilst "situational awareness" is great and all, if you didn't chamber a round before the confrontation began, at exactly what point do you think you're going to get that done that won't cost you precious defensive time?

 

[Speedo66]

Perhaps the best known example, a Glock mechanism and this is the safety

When loaded, these pistols are unsafe outside of their holster as it takes very little effort to pull the trigger and fire the weapon.

My 12lb. NY++ Glock trigger says otherwise.

Installed by my agency. Now retired, I've keep it as is as I'm used to it.

 

[Kleanbore]

When loaded, these pistols are unsafe outside of their holster as it takes very little effort to pull the trigger and fire the weapon.

No firearm is designed to be safe only when it is in its holster. They should be designed to be drop safe, and to fire when the trigger is pulled. Otherwise they would be useless.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The trigger, and its interlocking mechanisms, are what makes striker arms safe. Several things must happen, simultaneously, for the gun to fire; this assumes correct mechanical function.
No gun is totally 'safe', and must be treated accordingly. Hence the rules about muzzle discipline, booger hook off the bangswitch, know if it is actually loaded.
Moon

 

[Slamfire]

That gun is a DA/SA gun. It is designed to be carried with the chamber loaded and the hammer down. There isn't a decocker though like the other CZ model pictured or your P220. You can choose not to carry it with the hammer down, but it is designed to be carried in double action mode, with the chamber loaded and the hammer down.

Well, you are right, I am wrong.

I have revised my picture:



this is what the manual says:



It says there is a de cocker. I did not find it. If there is a decocker, it is not intuitively obvious. And of all things, the manual provides this picture on how to lower the hammer on a round:



I think that is nuts. That is exactly how John Browning thought the 1911 hammer out to be lowered, with the thumb of the shooting hand. And I know there were accidental discharges with the 1911, in fact, I am aware of one by a Police Officer who was monkeying around with his 1911 in his house. He lost control of the hammer. And, with that beavertail in the way, it makes it even more awkward to pull the trigger, and lower the hammer with a thumb. The theory is, pull the hammer off the full cock notch, pull the trigger, let hammer down beyond full cock notch, and then let go of trigger. Well, lets say the shooter loses control of the hammer before he releases the trigger. A big badda boom going to happen!

Another picture shows the shooter holding the round end (roundel?) between the thumb and forefinger of the support hand. I don't think this is all that good of an idea with a round in the chamber. You know, I tried to lower the hammer on this pistol and that little roundel ended hammer was impossible to control.

The hammer spur of a 1911 is positively critical to maintaining control of the hammer once the trigger has been pulled.



but I could not do that on the CZ75. And I did not find something that was a decocker.