keyholes

[km5]

reloaded 50 rounds 40 S&W mixed brass cci small pistol primers, 5.4 gr W231,Berry`s 180gr jhp ,Glock 23 several keyholed
any and all help (ideas) thanks

 

[FROGO207]

The original polygonal barrel in the Glock? The size does matter and if you taper crimped any amount at all this might be your problem. I just remove the flare with my 40 cal ammo and it seems to work best for me. Not shooting a Glock though.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Hodgdon reloading data center says 5.1gr of W231 is the maximum load for a Berry’s Bullets 180gr flat point. That may explain it.

 

[km5]

thanks that could be, got my load info from lyman start 5.0gr max 5.6gr loaded .2gr lower next will load at 5.ogr

 

[ballman6711]

I have to ask, and I apologize in advance, but are you starting at the min load and working up or are you starting near the max load?

chris

 

[Duster340]

Is your target on a cardboard backing? A loose hanging target will sometimes tear the target when a bullet penetrates looking like a keyhole .

 

[km5]

thanks for the heads up yes they were hanging paper

 

[km5]

I have to ask, and I apologize in advance, but are you starting at the min load and working up or are you starting near the max load?

chris

near max

 

[jmorris]

Berry`s 180gr jhp

FWIW Berry’s doesn’t make JHP’s or any jacketed pistol bullets, they are all plated.

thanks that could be, got my load info from lyman start 5.0gr max 5.6gr loaded .2gr lower next will load at 5.ogr

Also a good reason to consult a few sources when coming up with a starting load. The source in #3 and the one I have handy. Both indicate your starting load is above maximum.



That may or may not be where your problem is though. First thing I do with a new plated bullet load is to shoot them at a target just far enough away from the muzzle to not blow away the target with the muzzle blast.

If the plating has been compromised there will be a lead “pinwheel” left behind.



Up this close the holes will still be round but you can see the signs of a bullet that came apart and things are only going to get worse with distance.

From what I have seen, the #1 reason for failure is over crimping.

Pull a bullet and if they are over crimped, it will be obvious as the lead will be swaged down and they will look different than a new bullet. Like the 4 to the right of the bullet that hasn’t had the plating compromised.

 

[bluejay75]

@jmorris what makes the pinwheel?

 

[jmorris]

The plating lets go, then the ride down the barrel and the centrifugal force of the spinning bullet (over 40,000 rpm @ 900 fps from a 1:16” twist barrel) does the rest.

 

[12Bravo20]

I have noticed that when comparing Speer data for their TMJ (plated) bullets, the data is always higher than when comparing to Hodgdon data.

And with any plated bullet, you do not want to push them using max or near max FMJ charges. A plated bullet with or without a crimp will come apart if pushed too fast. There was another thread recently where someone was using Speer data for Berry's bullets and he had issues too since the powder charges were too high. He was also using the wrong powder for one of his loads too.

 

[Hartkopf]

There was another thread recently where someone was using Speer data for Berry's bullets and he had issues too since the powder charges were too high. He was also using the wrong powder for one of his loads too.

That was me.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/fliers-with-plated-bullets-in-glock-40s-w.891295/

 

[fxvr5]

I
And with any plated bullet, you do not want to push them using max or near max FMJ charges. A plated bullet with or without a crimp will come apart if pushed too fast. There was another thread recently where someone was using Speer data for Berry's bullets and he had issues too since the powder charges were too high. He was also using the wrong powder for one of his loads too.

This is not correct. Some plated bullets can easily be pushed to full FMJ speeds. Berry's thick plated bullets can be run up to 1,500 fps, which is more than max published speeds for something fast like 9mm, 357 SIG. Even their standard plating with a limit of 1,200 fps is plenty good for max 45 ACP speeds.

Also, Speer does not put speed limits on their TMJ and Gold Dot pistol bullets, only their thinly plated CPRN bullets.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

thanks that could be, got my load info from lyman start 5.0gr max 5.6gr loaded .2gr lower next will load at 5.ogr

Be careful using Lyman cast data as well. It’s tuned for either #2 Alloy or Linotype. Those are both much harder casting alloys than the typical 96-2-2 and completely different from swaged which tends to be the core of plated bullets. That’s why most plated bullet makers give maximum velocities for their bullets that are significantly lower than jacketed. Also typically lower than hard cast. But not always…

 

[Herman B]

...Berry`s 180gr jhp...

That's a plated bullet that is a far cry from a JHP in terms of construction and performance. The general rule of thumb is to run standard plated at low/mid JHP velocities or <1200 fps.

 

[fxvr5]

Be careful using Lyman cast data as well. It’s tuned for either #2 Alloy or Linotype. Those are both much harder casting alloys than the typical 96-2-2 and completely different from swaged which tends to be the core of plated bullets. That’s why most plated bullet makers give maximum velocities for their bullets that are significantly lower than jacketed. Also typically lower than hard cast. But not always…

See post #14.

 

[Rule3]

thanks for the heads up yes they were hanging paper

And there in is you reason for "key-holing"

Some times it is the simple things in life. Put the target on cardboard and try again with the same loads.
Not everything is as big an issue as some folks make them,

Berrys can be loaded with ANY available load data.

Load data from any load manual or website can be used. Full-metal jacketed, lead bullet, or plated bullet load data can be used as long as the following standards are adhered to:

• The data contains the correct grain weight of bullet.
• Berry's max recommended velocity is not exceeded. (This info is displayed on bullet boxes and product webpages.)
  • Standard Plate Bullets Max Velocity: 1,250 fps.
  • Thick-Plate Bullets (TP) Max Velocity: 1,500 fps.
• Do not over-crimp the bullet. Crimping so tight that bullet deformation occurs, or plating is separated causing visible exposure of the lead core will cause tumbling, key-holing, and reduced accuracy.

Load data containing bullet descriptions such as Plated (P,) Berry's Bullet (BERB,) Total Metal Jacket (TMJ,) Copper Plated (CP,) or CPJ (Copper Plated Jacket,) refers to plated bullet data.

Cartridge Overall Lengths (COL) are found in the load data being used. DO NOT EXCEED SAAMI MAX COL SPE

https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq

 

[whughett]

Berry’s plated bullets have a max velocity of 1250 FPS. It’s printed on their 250 round plastic box. That for 9mm. Don’t know about 40’s

 

[12Bravo20]

This is not correct. Some plated bullets can easily be pushed to full FMJ speeds. Berry's thick plated bullets can be run up to 1,500 fps, which is more than max published speeds for something fast like 9mm, 357 SIG. Even their standard plating with a limit of 1,200 fps is plenty good for max 45 ACP speeds.

Also, Speer does not put speed limits on their TMJ and Gold Dot pistol bullets, only their thinly plated CPRN bullets.

You stick with what works for you. And I'll stick with what works for me.

I use Hodgdon's load data for Berry's plated bullets and I do not push them with a max FMJ powder charge. When I did try loading to max with FMJ data, the plated bullets started to shed the plating. And no I was not over crimping them either.

 

[mjsdwash]

Is your target on a cardboard backing? A loose hanging target will sometimes tear the target when a bullet penetrates looking like a keyhole .

absolutely correct, and with your information provided, probably your cause.

 

[Hartkopf]

OP, how were the groups? I shot hanging paper and got flyers that were keyholing.

 

[Hartkopf]

I use Hodgdon's load data for Berry's plated bullets and I do not push them with a max FMJ powder charge. When I did try loading to max with FMJ data, the plated bullets started to shed the plating. And no I was not over crimping them either.

I have loaded 9mm Berry’s, Speer plated and RMR plated with jacketed data and did not get keyholing. But the groups were not so good.

With 40 S&W I had total hell so maybe the diameter to length ratio of the bullet makes it even more problematic than some other calibers.

 

[12Bravo20]

I have loaded 9mm Berry’s, Speer plated and RMR plated with jacketed data and did not get keyholing. But the groups were not so good.

With 40 S&W I had total hell so maybe the diameter to length ratio of the bullet makes it even more problematic than some other calibers.

When reloading Berry's bullets I try to stick with the published data for that exact bullet from the powder manufacturers. Hodgdon is pretty good about having data specific for Berry's bullets.

I normally use Hodgdon Universal powder for all my pistol calibers. For 40 S&W, I load Berry's 180 grain using their data for the Berry's 180 FP bullets. Starting load is 4.6 grains and max is 5.1 grains. This is right in between what most manuals state for lead cast and FMJ bullets. For example Hodgdon states min of 5.0 grains and max of 5.8 grains when using Hornady 180Gr XTP and Speer data for Gold Dot and TMJ are min 5.3 grains and max 5.9 grains. I find that 5.1 grains of Universal does great with the Berry's 180Gr FP bullets out of every firearm I shoot it in. I shoot the in a 1911, Star Firestar M40, several Glocks, A Taurus 24/7 Pro C and Hi Point Carbine with good success.

Again check multiple sources and always use data for your specific bullet when available. I like Hodgdon since they do provide data for the Berry's bullets.

 

[jmorris]

This is not correct. Some plated bullets can easily be pushed to full FMJ speeds

I don’t think speed is the OP’s issue, 40 S&W should be like 45 ACP and subsonic with given load data.

Have the OP pull a bullet and post a photo of it and I might make a bet on the cause.