I suppose that I was lumping them (accuracy and reliability) together. A sort of reliable accuracy entailing that it obviously reliably shoots. What is your opinion on them for reliability then? I have heard of misfires from Kimbers (until you change the mag and pump a few hundred rounds through) and minimal from DW, none from EB (which I must say that it seems odd that not one misfired ever).
Kimber vs Ed Brown vs Dan Wesson
- Thread starter kuma
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Kimber vs Ed Brown vs Dan Wesson
Short version: Buy an Ed Brown!!
Long version:
I have two Kimbers (Tactical Entry II, Stainless Pro Raptor II), two Ed Browns (Special Forces and Special Forces Carry) and two Dan Wessons (Valor and V-Bob).
If you want a beautiful 1911 that works perfectly from day one with a hard fit barrel, perfect trigger, perfect thumb safety, superb glassy slide to frame fit, incredible attention to detail with outstanding blending of the MSH, frame and slide, and not a burr inside or out, then I suggest that you buy an Ed Brown. If you want a 1911 that you simply want to shoot and don't want to take a gamble on, and don't want to tinker with then buy an Ed Brown. If you want to shoot thousands upon thousands of 230gr FMJ or any other "major" load without drama (just the occasional recoil spring) then buy an Ed Brown. There are a number of other semi-custom 1911s that are as good as or better but you specified Ed Brown.
If you like to gamble but don't mind fixing things yourself or sending firearms back to the manufacture, then buy the current offerings from Dan Wesson. I had read a great deal about the Dan Wesson Valor and V-Bob before I decided to buy them. The truth is, their prices have increased and yet they don't show anything close to the attention to detail that the 2009 models exhibited if you read Dave Severns thorough review. The coatings on the parts are mismatched with many of the smaller parts not having the Cerakote finish. Not a huge deal but I'd expect more for $1,800 and $1,900 respectively. However, the bigger issues were that both the Valor and V-Bob barrels had slight movement when pushing down on the barrel hood so I fitted new Ed Brown bushings to both and now the barrels lock up tight. Dave Severns does this regularly to DW 1911s. He even states the bushing to barrel fit is a crap shoot with DW. I think that the barrels were "rocking" on the lower lugs due to loose barrel bushings. The Valor thumb safety is very hard to engage so I'll need to fix that. Burrs inside the frame of the Valor gouged two parallel lines down the length of the magazines so I had to take a small file to those. The V-Bob's magazine release didn't work well at all so I had to file and polish it in order to insert magazines with the normal amount of effort. Magazines wouldn't fall out of the pistol at all. Burrs inside the V-Bob's frame also gouged and scratched the magazines ... another thing to fix. So what's good about the Valor and V-Bob. They're great looking pistols for sure, the 25lpi checkering is perfect, the Heine sights are perfect, the trigger pull is perfect (sear to hammer fit), the slide and frame are stainless and all of the parts are of high quality. I have to say, the Dan Wessons have pissed me off more than any pistols I've ever bought because I expected a lot more based on what I had read on the internet. You have to pay to play and eventually I will be happy ... just not yet.
Finally, how about Kimber. My experience with Kimbers has been positive thus far but there is definitely a "luck factor". My TEII is a proven performer with no issue to report over the last 2,000 rounds or so, mostly USPSA matches which is fairly hard use. I'll admit that there isn't much Kimber left in that pistol other than the frame, slide, MSH/magwell, tactical bump safety (added) and sights, but to me, that's what I like about Kimber. The parts were swapped to increase reliability and longevity rather than improve the function of the pistol which was fine from the factory. Kimbers are fun to work on and tinker with. I bought a new Raptor recently and last night began the process of changing most of the MIM parts, removing the firing pin safety and fitting a new Ed Brown thumb safety. The barrel fit of the Raptor puts both Dan Wessons to shame. Maybe luck, maybe design but it's really good. There are many shooters out there who buy a Kimber and just shoot it and enjoy it but I'm not in that group. Kimber pistols can make solid platforms to build on particularly if you like a specific feature of the frame or slide. I bought the $1,100 Raptor as a project gun and because I like things in pairs. The slide and frame are unique in terms of looks and also functional and for a little over $200, I can take the Raptor to the next level increasing both the reliability and longevity.
Short version: Buy an Ed Brown!!
Long version:
I have two Kimbers (Tactical Entry II, Stainless Pro Raptor II), two Ed Browns (Special Forces and Special Forces Carry) and two Dan Wessons (Valor and V-Bob).
If you want a beautiful 1911 that works perfectly from day one with a hard fit barrel, perfect trigger, perfect thumb safety, superb glassy slide to frame fit, incredible attention to detail with outstanding blending of the MSH, frame and slide, and not a burr inside or out, then I suggest that you buy an Ed Brown. If you want a 1911 that you simply want to shoot and don't want to take a gamble on, and don't want to tinker with then buy an Ed Brown. If you want to shoot thousands upon thousands of 230gr FMJ or any other "major" load without drama (just the occasional recoil spring) then buy an Ed Brown. There are a number of other semi-custom 1911s that are as good as or better but you specified Ed Brown.
If you like to gamble but don't mind fixing things yourself or sending firearms back to the manufacture, then buy the current offerings from Dan Wesson. I had read a great deal about the Dan Wesson Valor and V-Bob before I decided to buy them. The truth is, their prices have increased and yet they don't show anything close to the attention to detail that the 2009 models exhibited if you read Dave Severns thorough review. The coatings on the parts are mismatched with many of the smaller parts not having the Cerakote finish. Not a huge deal but I'd expect more for $1,800 and $1,900 respectively. However, the bigger issues were that both the Valor and V-Bob barrels had slight movement when pushing down on the barrel hood so I fitted new Ed Brown bushings to both and now the barrels lock up tight. Dave Severns does this regularly to DW 1911s. He even states the bushing to barrel fit is a crap shoot with DW. I think that the barrels were "rocking" on the lower lugs due to loose barrel bushings. The Valor thumb safety is very hard to engage so I'll need to fix that. Burrs inside the frame of the Valor gouged two parallel lines down the length of the magazines so I had to take a small file to those. The V-Bob's magazine release didn't work well at all so I had to file and polish it in order to insert magazines with the normal amount of effort. Magazines wouldn't fall out of the pistol at all. Burrs inside the V-Bob's frame also gouged and scratched the magazines ... another thing to fix. So what's good about the Valor and V-Bob. They're great looking pistols for sure, the 25lpi checkering is perfect, the Heine sights are perfect, the trigger pull is perfect (sear to hammer fit), the slide and frame are stainless and all of the parts are of high quality. I have to say, the Dan Wessons have pissed me off more than any pistols I've ever bought because I expected a lot more based on what I had read on the internet. You have to pay to play and eventually I will be happy ... just not yet.
Finally, how about Kimber. My experience with Kimbers has been positive thus far but there is definitely a "luck factor". My TEII is a proven performer with no issue to report over the last 2,000 rounds or so, mostly USPSA matches which is fairly hard use. I'll admit that there isn't much Kimber left in that pistol other than the frame, slide, MSH/magwell, tactical bump safety (added) and sights, but to me, that's what I like about Kimber. The parts were swapped to increase reliability and longevity rather than improve the function of the pistol which was fine from the factory. Kimbers are fun to work on and tinker with. I bought a new Raptor recently and last night began the process of changing most of the MIM parts, removing the firing pin safety and fitting a new Ed Brown thumb safety. The barrel fit of the Raptor puts both Dan Wessons to shame. Maybe luck, maybe design but it's really good. There are many shooters out there who buy a Kimber and just shoot it and enjoy it but I'm not in that group. Kimber pistols can make solid platforms to build on particularly if you like a specific feature of the frame or slide. I bought the $1,100 Raptor as a project gun and because I like things in pairs. The slide and frame are unique in terms of looks and also functional and for a little over $200, I can take the Raptor to the next level increasing both the reliability and longevity.
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71Commander
Member
71Commander
Member
Instead of the Kimber, I'd check out STI.
Winkman822
Member
The Ed Brown is by far the best of the bunch, but if that's a little spendy for you, go for the Dan Wesson. Kimber is typically at the absolute bottom of my list for 1911s after having three of them that were less than reliable without tuning.
Cards81fan
Member.
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- Apr 5, 2009
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As EddieNFL said, any of these pistols names will be combat accurate enough for a CCW. Heck, the most basic pistols (Rock Island, ATI, Metro Arms/Firestorm) would fit that accuracy bill. You are talking National Match or otherwise bulls-eye accuracy if you going to drop $1500, $2500+ on a pistol.
That improved accuracy will not buy you much in terms of practicality for carry. Respectfully, you need to worry not about the accuracy on these, and determine which ones fit your reliability and features specifications.
That improved accuracy will not buy you much in terms of practicality for carry. Respectfully, you need to worry not about the accuracy on these, and determine which ones fit your reliability and features specifications.
ohio58
Member
Kimber,Wesson,Ed Brown
When i was looking for my first 1911, i also narrowed it down to Kimber,
Dan Wesson (Valor) & Ed Brown.
Out of these three, i went for the Ed brown (Special Forces) and never looked back.
Is is, in my opinion, one of the best custom manufactured 1911's out there.
About a month after i bought the Ed Brown i had to have a Les Baer, so i got a great deal on a Thunder Ranch . It is truly a work of art.
Get the Ed Brown......you will be glad you did down the road.
When i was looking for my first 1911, i also narrowed it down to Kimber,
Dan Wesson (Valor) & Ed Brown.
Out of these three, i went for the Ed brown (Special Forces) and never looked back.
Is is, in my opinion, one of the best custom manufactured 1911's out there.
About a month after i bought the Ed Brown i had to have a Les Baer, so i got a great deal on a Thunder Ranch . It is truly a work of art.
Get the Ed Brown......you will be glad you did down the road.
ichiban
Member
I can definitely see the difference (fit & finish) between a Kimber and a DW but I can't see a $1000.00 difference between the DW VBOB and the EB Kobra Carry. The models I compared were stainless so I can't speak to other finishes. Maybe I just don't have a highly refined 1911 palate.
BTW - I went with a DW VBOB for my EDC and just love it. I can't imagine being happier with the EB. YMMV.
BTW - I went with a DW VBOB for my EDC and just love it. I can't imagine being happier with the EB. YMMV.
Zerodefect
member
Exactly how I feel.
I don't need anything that the EB, W, or NH offer over a DW or LB.
Zerodefect said:
I kind of agree with the not needing part. A Dan Wesson Valor or V-Bob should be just as reliable, just as (or more accurate if you're lucky) and have equal longevity when compared to an Ed Brown. Let's be honest, both are over built for the casual 1,000 rounds per year user. However, I am prepared to pay the extra money to obtain a 1911 with much more attention to detail which includes more hand fitting, significantly more finishing, no "luck" factor in the bushing/barrel fit and some features such as snakeskin that improves the purchase on the slide. I do wish that EB offered Heine Straight Eight sights but it's easy to change them out.
Get R Done Guns
Member
+1 for Nighthawk customs. All guns are guaranteed to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards!
benderx4
Member
For the three you mentioned - no brainer, get yourself an Ed Brown Kobra Karry!
If you're open-minded I would also recommend a Les Baer and/or anything from the Springfield Custom Shop (FBI guns).
If you're open-minded I would also recommend a Les Baer and/or anything from the Springfield Custom Shop (FBI guns).
Winkman822
Member
Springfield Custom makes great guns, but if you're going for a 1911 Professional (the FBI gun), expect a LONG wait. For something similar in specs and price, but without the wait look at a Wilson Combat CQB (though their prices just went up a little), an Ed Brown Special Forces, a Les Baer SRP, or a Nighthawk Custom Talon. For a flat out great gun out of the box that's dollar for dollar the best custom 1911 out there, get a Les Baer Custom Carry Commanche.
Here is a recent topic where Dave Severns of Severns Custom goes through several 1911's including the FBI Springfield and Dan Wesson Valor and does an accuracy test at 25 yards.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236
Zerodefect
member
Get R Done Guns
Member
If you buy less and add the pieces you are stuck trying to find a deal piece by piece. Does this sound more time consuming than its worth? Buying it in pieces may or may not cost less but in the end of the day you spent the same money. Unless you have a ton of time to look and find the "deal" on every part you add or just finding each individual part in general and do not have all the money now then buy "cheaper" and work up to it. If money is no problem then do it once and do it right! Just our .02!
Imagine going through a thread like this on EVERY SINGLE PART you buy!!! LOL
Probably not that dramatic but you are going to want to know from knowledgable people what parts are best/worst/good/bad it really seems like a PITA if you don't have to go through it.
Just my .02!
Imagine going through a thread like this on EVERY SINGLE PART you buy!!! LOL
Probably not that dramatic but you are going to want to know from knowledgable people what parts are best/worst/good/bad it really seems like a PITA if you don't have to go through it.
Just my .02!
AJD said:
Mr. Severns seems to get all the good DWs for his tests. Where are the DWs that have a lot more than 0.002" clearance on the barrel bushings, have barrel play in lockup, have burrs inside the frame gouging the magazines, have poorly fitted thumb safeties, have poorly fitted magazine releases? I know, they're sold to regular folks that don't make one glowing DW review after another.
And Mr. Severns states that "the 2010 DWs are nothing like the 2009 and older models". He means that the 2010 models are better but I'll stick with the other interpretation based on my two. My next two 1911s will be Ed Browns or maybe Wilson Combats or maybe Les Baer regardless of the expert opinion of Mr. Severns.P.S. I did learn that the Dan Wesson black finish is a ferritic nitrocarburizing metal treatment rather than Cerakote. Also, I like Mr. Severns' review of the parts, fit and finish of each pistol. Very informative for anyone who likes to tinker with 1911s.
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Zerodefect
member
Mr. Severns seems to get all the good DWs for his tests. Where are the DWs that have a lot more than 0.002" clearance on the barrel bushings, have barrel play in lockup, have burrs inside the frame gouging the magazines, have poorly fitted thumb safeties, have poorly fitted magazine releases? I know, they're sold to regular folks that don't make one glowing DW review after another.
P.S. I did learn that the Dan Wesson black finish is a ferritic nitrocarburizing metal treatment rather than Cerakote. Also, I like Mr. Severns' review of the parts, fit and finish of each pistol. Very informative for anyone who likes to tinker with 1911s.
I got one of the good ones. Really tight bushing requires a wrench. Very hard to reassemble cause of that. Barrel is tight as..... I don't know, but I can't move it that's for sure.
Except for a front sight that was too tall. DW would have fixed it, as some .180 sights got mixed in with the .140's, but I'm swapping over to my style sights anyways so I never bothered to send it in. A Dawson front sight costs less than shipping anyways.
That sounds like alot of problems. I probally would have sent yours back. Yours was a 2010, right? The 2008's are nowhere near as nice as the 2010's. The barrel bit would be a deal breaker for me. The other stuff....meh, no big deal.
I've been looking at the LB monoliths for a race gun, after shooting one. But I might wait until someone makes a doublestack that isn't hideous instead.
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Zerodefect, 2010 yes. I know I sound bitter about the DWs but that's not the case. I was tinkering with them last night removing those awful slimline grips and installing new VZ ETC standard grips and they are truly nice 1911s. I can see why many don't want to spend the extra for an Ed Brown or similar. If mine came the way Mr. Severns DWs show up, I probably wouldn't either!!
As I've said before, I fitted Ed Brown bushings to both barrels which solved any barrel movement issues so I'm happy about that. I still need to remove the thumb safety on the Valor and figure out why it's so hard to engage but I've resolved all the other issues. I should measure the OD of the barrels at the muzzle and measure the ID of the factory bushings. There's no way in Hades that the clearance is only 0.002" ... I'm thinking it's more like 0.006" to 0.008". But Mr. Severns is right about the quality of the parts in the DWs and the triggers are without a doubt the best factory triggers I've ever had to pleasure to use. I know I'm going to love the DWs eventually but it'll just take a little time. I'll stop *itching about them now since if you get a good one, you really wouldn't be significantly better off with anything else.
As I've said before, I fitted Ed Brown bushings to both barrels which solved any barrel movement issues so I'm happy about that. I still need to remove the thumb safety on the Valor and figure out why it's so hard to engage but I've resolved all the other issues. I should measure the OD of the barrels at the muzzle and measure the ID of the factory bushings. There's no way in Hades that the clearance is only 0.002" ... I'm thinking it's more like 0.006" to 0.008". But Mr. Severns is right about the quality of the parts in the DWs and the triggers are without a doubt the best factory triggers I've ever had to pleasure to use. I know I'm going to love the DWs eventually but it'll just take a little time. I'll stop *itching about them now since if you get a good one, you really wouldn't be significantly better off with anything else.
Zerodefect
member
My safety is a little stiff as well. But it's unfortunately a little less stiff now.
I liked it that way. A loud, stiff, click feels expensive to me. I noticed a similar feel with W and LB. But K and SF seem mushy. The EB safety on my Kimber was a bit mushy. I drilled the detent dimples down and stretched a EB spring out a little to get that stiff click feel.
I liked it that way. A loud, stiff, click feels expensive to me. I noticed a similar feel with W and LB. But K and SF seem mushy. The EB safety on my Kimber was a bit mushy. I drilled the detent dimples down and stretched a EB spring out a little to get that stiff click feel.
The V-Bob safety is perfect, but the Valor safety is inordinately hard to engage. They're easy to figure out but I'm working my way through one 1911 at a time. I'll get to it soon enough. I've installed three Ed Brown thumb safeties, the last one just a few days ago, and they snap on/off with a positive "click" and a reasonable amount of effort, just like the V-Bob. I should use my trigger pull gauge to compare the amount of force required for the Valor compared to the V-Bob. It's at least twice as much force.
Dave Severns' review and test encouraged me to measure the original barrel bushings and barrels for both the Valor and the V-Bob and also measure the new Ed Brown bushings that I fitted to replace the OE bushings. I wrapped some very fine emery paper around a dowel to polish the insides of both Ed Brown bushings so that they would just spin freely on the barrel without binding or hanging up. Anyway, these results show that the barrel bushings on the both the Valor and V-Bob were nowhere near the +0.002" reported by Dave Severns in his review. The Valor bushing was +0.006" and the V-Bob bushing was +0.007" when compared to their respective barrels. This might explain why both barrels exhibited movement when pushing down on the the barrel hood. I can see from the slide stop pin and lower barrel lugs that both barrels are fit well and not sitting on the link, but a loose barrel bushing could allow the barrel to "rock" on the lower lugs. Maybe 1911Tuner can confirm or refute this since it's just a guess on my part. Here are some photos showing the dimensions.
Valor barrel O.D.
Valor original bushing I.D.
Ed Brown bushing I.D. that replaced the original Valor bushing
V-Bob barrel O.D.
V-Bob original bushing I.D.
Ed Brown bushing I.D. that replaced the original V-Bob bushing
Ed Brown bushing and recoil spring plug in V-Bob
Valor barrel O.D.
Valor original bushing I.D.
Ed Brown bushing I.D. that replaced the original Valor bushing
V-Bob barrel O.D.
V-Bob original bushing I.D.
Ed Brown bushing I.D. that replaced the original V-Bob bushing
Ed Brown bushing and recoil spring plug in V-Bob
My conclusions for owning a Valor and Vbob ans spending a fair time around forums with other Dan Wesson owners is that Dan Wesson is capable of putting out a pistol that matches the likes of more expensive 1911's. But they do not spend the amount of time hand fitting(as mentioned in the Severns article) so you may or may not receive the same level of consistent performance from pistol to pistol when going with Dan Wesson.
Thank you all for your detailed and informative comments. The gun show is tomorrow and its gonna be between the Kobra Carry, the VBOB and the DW Guardian. The only thing is, outside of the poker table im the unluckiest guy I know...and all of the talk about DW being luck of the draw is kind of a turn off, so it may end up being the Kobra Carry all the way, im glad I got the advice to move away from Kimber tho, its not that they arent good guns, i am just looking for something great. And the advice on having to do all of the research on every part if i was to buy cheap and upgrade was great advice as that would have probably consumed months of my time haha
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