Knife defense drills?

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Since I can't legally carry a firearm with me in Wisconsin concealed, and open carrying just rubs me as a bad idea, I do carry a knife with about a 5" blade, non-folding.

So the question is, does anyone know any drills that can be conducted with a knife to train to defend oneself?

Maybe you remember something from your days in the service, or martial arts classes?

Anything helps, thanks in advance.
 
Don't over think it. Get in close and start pumping your blade into his chest. Slashes on the side of neck, stabs in the front in back. Rember the kideney's. and slash the insides of the arms.

Chris
 
Actualy this is a very easy one. Find the nearest AIKODO dojo. It is an art I have spent many years studing. It is based on the Samurai arts and a major part of it is dedicated to dealing with sharpies.
PM me if you need help finding one I live on the chedder curtain and know of many local Dojo's
 
I do carry a knife with about a 5" blade, non-folding.
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Make sure you check local statutes before carrying. In Arkansas anything over a 3.5" blade qualifies as a weapon and you can be charged with a misdemeanor. Don't know about Wisconsin, but packing.org should have the pertinent statute.
 
Allways remember when knife-fighting:

"Steel to flesh, not flesh to steel."

When someone strikes at you w/ a knife, bring your knife to meet their wirst. With your off-hand, try to pass the BG wrist into our knife (like a big scissors). At the same time you should clear your line; meaning, move your body out of the line of the BG's attack.

Also, learn to use both "dagger" and "reverse" grips. Some people might tell you that "reverse grip" is better b/c it is what Special Forces use. That is total BS. The only differnece between dagger and reverse grip is range. Use dagger grip at arms length, and reverse when in close. Practice changing grip while in the middle of an attack, it should be fluid, quick, and done with either hand.


The Above is not the substitute for training, and the techniques that I mentioned were simplified to better communicate them. Knife-fighting is not like some other matial arts, where you learn forms, it is too fluid. The man who taught me was a police close combat instructor (and other things). He also like to mix knife-fighting with Brazilian Ju-jitsu and Escrima. His meathod of instruction was to teach us all several different types of attacks and counters, then we would pair off and spar at half-speed.

As far as trainers go, Akido is good, but the best martial artists that I have found are the ones who mix disciplines. If you want to devote you life to it, pick one (like akido), get good at it then start learning others to form your own fighting style (like Bruce Lee). If you just want to know enough to increase your chances of comming out of a fight alive a little more, then ask around the local self-defense instuctors. Ask what disciplines they focus on, if they deal with weapon training, the type of combat they focus on (traditional i.e. compitition, or street-fighting/self-defense).

If all else fails and you cannot find a good instuctor (not likely) or you just can't devote the time/money to it, get(make) some blunt training knives and spar with a friend. Of course, that will only train you to fight someone of your friend's ability level.

Hope that helps.
 
One of the quickest ways to learn how good or bad a knife is in combat is to practice drills disarming a knife weilding attacker. I have studied Aikido for a while too, and I gotta say, I'm really more confident not having a knife than having one. But, I'm a big guy with big hands and Aikido works well for me.
However, let me second Biker on the previous post, if you're firm on the knife thing.
 
keep it close.

First off, if you are goingto use it for self-defense, may I reccomend a fixed blade knife. The fastest folder isn't as fast as a fixed blade. Keep the knife close to your body and think of it like a haymaker, you have to set up for it using jabs and footwork and then when you have your opening, strike. Even then, keep the tip of the knife within 12'' of your body at all times. People focus on cutting the other person and forget that they can fent with the knife (which the BG WILL be concerned about) and slam a good left in setting up for a more effective cut. When you are focusing on cutting, you limit your arsenal.
If you are truly involved in SELF DEFENSE then you should "cut and run." Also, stabs are more lethal then slashes but also harder to get untangled from sometimes (in other words it's easier to slash and run then stab and run). If you extend the knife very far from yourself it isn't difficult to have it taken away. I would refrain from overhead motions and concentrate on a "quick in/quick out" style. If you are cornered, let them close the gap, cut the BG and then run to safety. There can be no good ending to such an altercation and getting out as quick as possible is your best hope of surviving and beiong able to sleep at night.~Nathan
PS the filipino martial arts, kali, escrima, arnis, etc. Have some good knife trainging if you get an instructor that is worth a damn and is actually teaching "self defense" NOT how to kill people with knives.
 
I've trained for years in karate, aikido, and koryu (a traditional Japanese style that predates 1868).

What 1911 Tuner said was spot on.

I can tell you one thing about going unarmed against a knife though...I hope you don't meet up with someone who's been practicing with a knife as you've been practicing hand to hand. If you do, you'd best be a master. The same thing goes for using a knife if you run into someone who's been practicing diligently with his knife for years.

I personally don't consider a knife to be a very good defensive weapon. I prefer a cane. With proper training a cane can be devastating. To have the same effective range with a bladed weapon, you'd need to be carrying a sword.

What about OC sprays? Are they legal in your state?

I'd look at other possibilities than a knife. Consider knife fighting distance. It usually devolves into grappling distance quickly. A manriki gusari is a weighted chain about thirty inches long. Some call it a kursari fundo. It can be used to strike and also to grapple. It can also be improvised easily from innocuous items.

I carried openly here in Georgia before CCW was passed. A BHP in a IWB holster. At least 90% of the people around me never noticed it. Out of the ones who did and said anything about it...apparently thought that the kid in blue jeans, tie dyed shirt, sandals, long hair, and a beard was a police officer.
From the things they said, they thought I was undercover or something:rolleyes:

Personally, if my choice was open carry or depending upon other weapons-I'd opt for open carry. Discreet open carry. With the proper IWB holster and belt, someone will only be able to tell you're carrying from a few angles.

It's as I told a friend who took a knife to a shotgun fight about six weeks later,"You're gonna pull that knife out one night and be real embarrassed when the other guy hops back and pulls out a gun." Feb, 25, 2007, he'll have been dead a quarter of a century
 
Fair enough...

OC is legal here, but its been pretty hard to find locally. I'll probably end up ordering some off the net. But there are people who don't really respond to mace, so I think that makes a more rigid solution necessary.

Practice is always key, that's why I'm looking for drills that I can do. I need something to practice before I can practice it.

And I guess all things considered, I'm just not the kind of guy that ever wants anyone to know he's carrying a gun, basically ever. Open carry, for some reason, just rubs me wrong. Fine for other people, but it just seems like a bad choice for me. I would CCW if it were legal, but there's that "if" again.

So my best bet sounds like I need a good draw-strike-evade-run knife drill, because I'm not about to pretend to be a ninja master with my 9-dollar Ozark Trail knife. Don't need to stand and fight, that seems a bad idea for anyone who isn't looking for trouble.

Thanks everyone though, I do appreciate the input, and any more is always welcome.
 
I think I'd go with OC, cane, and knife. I just don't care for the ranges required of knives or empty hand fighting for that matter.

Now I've practiced both empty hand and knife. But they are back up positions. The OC didn't work. Some mishap lost me the cane. I've tried to run and turned into a cul-de-sac. I have no choice but the knife. I'm showing nothing. I'm not even standing in an overt fighting stance. Just as the knife is a surprise so will the unarmed fight be surprising. Maybe I was able to scoop up some dirt before he got me in sight again.

The decision to not carry openly is yours to make. However, I'd be contacting whatever groups are working for CCW in Wisconsin and volunteering time and money.
 
Unarmed against a blade - backpedal as fast as you can while throwing whatever's available at the guy until you can get away. Not pretty, but practical.

Using a blade - hmph. Assuming you can even get it out in time, its main defensive use is to buy you enough space and time to get away, no matter what the wouldbe ninjas tell you.
 
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There’s a book called Cold Steel, I don’t remember who the author is. I think its one of the better books out there on defensive use of edged weapons. Lots of drills and such. If your really serious about learning to use a knife I recommend this book highly.
 
John Styers. Reprint available from Paladin Press. Originally published by Leatherneck magazine. I've a copy of the hardback original.

I would agree it's one of the better books out there that can show one a way to become reasonably adept with a knife without practicing daily for years. I'd disagree that it shows one how to be defensive. It was written by a Marine for Marines. It's object is to kill the enemy in order to succeed in the mission not self defense.

But then, I don't see much defense in a knife beyond 'the best defense is a good offense.' I prefer to have weapons with greater range than my opponent's weapons...and to make full use of that greater range. To the pit with 'fair' fights.

The system Styers advocates in 'Cold Steel' is built around the use of a KaBar type combat knife. And it is well matched to the KaBar. Many of the targets advocated, if used with the same techniques, will result in little injury with a lighter knife with a different balance. Specifically, the whiplash effect targeted against the opponent's knife hand. If the target is struck with a KaBar, it will result in crippled or severed fingers that can no longer fight with a knife. If the same stance and thrust is used with, say, a Spyderco Native...you might have lacerations. I strongly doubt you'll have crippled or severed fingers. Gee, sure wish I could carry a KaBar.

The stance used by Styers is very deceptive. Your range in a lunge is almost twice as far as most people would imagine. Most people-and systems-instinctively hold the knife hand foot to the rear and the weak side foot forward. Styers teaches the knife hand foot forward stance. I do use the grip he taught as well as the stance. It's worked well against martial artists adept with knives who have never seen the style before. It is deceptive.

The bayonet section of the book is interesting.
 
What Crofrog said.

And best general tactic with a knife is to let it come as a complete surprize to an attacker. Avoid displaying one to deter.

Study anatomy; major organs, major blood vessels, tendons etc. Memorize the body's internals in 3D.

----------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Actualy this is a very easy one. Find the nearest AIKODO dojo. It is an art I have spent many years studing. It is based on the Samurai arts and a major part of it is dedicated to dealing with sharpies.
PM me if you need help finding one I live on the chedder curtain and know of many local Dojo's
__________________
PIUS GRADALE MILES MILITIS
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I'm really sorry to say this, because I hate the "your martial art sux!" arguments. But out of concern for the original correspondent's life I must strongly argue against almost all of the Aikido I've been involved with or seen for serious self defense against a knife. Their weapons work is almost always execrable. For the stuff against weapons, well the situations they train for against the blade are extremely artificial. A thrust from the hip starting two steps away. A huge, wide looping slash from the same distance. Overhead stabs a la Psycho.

Add to all of this the typical Aikido attitude towards training. Everything is cooperative and friendly all the time. It's a cardinal sin to resist in training. Ever. To see if your stuff works against a non-compliant attacker you have to pressure test it from time to time against someone who is making a good faith effort to land one on you in a realistic fashion. The Universal Love and Harmony are great in their place. But until you are very, very, very good it's a lousy way to train for self defense. You need to be able to function when you are stressed and afraid.

I know. I know. "Samurai" "Tokyo Riot Police". Yes. The samurai were great warriors, even if they only ever fought each other. Their weapons were the sword, the bow and the spear, not the short knife except when things had gone irretrievably wahoonie-shaped. The Tokyo Riot Police (cf. Angry White Pyjamas) are brutalized, yelled at, and worked half to death in training. And they spend a lot of time beating the excrement out of each other for practice.

If you're looking to learn how to use knives or how to defend against them there are much better options. The Filipino traditions come immediately to mind. Groups like The School of the Two Swords, Hock Hockheim's people or any of a number of RBSD types would also be very good bets.

A couple other pieces of curmudgeonly advice:

1) Fixed blades are faster than folders, but folders can definitely be fast enough if you practice a little. They are also much more likely to pass the all-important Police Attitude Test.

2) Styer's book is interesting only for historical purposes. As a knife training manual it's awful and will get you killed. Styer was an apprentice of Biddle who taught knife fencing to the Marines. Eventually he stopped using volunteers from the audience because they consistently beat the hell out of him.

3) If it's bad enough to require a knife forget OC. It beats screaming for help, I suppose, but as a self defense tool against a determined, violent armed criminal? Not even.
 
1) Fixed blades are faster than folders, but folders can definitely be fast enough if you practice a little. They are also much more likely to pass the all-important Police Attitude Test.
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+1. Assisted openers, Benchmade axis locks (setup for inertia opening) and the emerson wave's are all cabable of being opened very very fast indeed.

Still slower than pulling a small fixed blade out of a steath.
 
Jeff F,

No offense, but "Cold Steel" is how to kill with a knife and not how to defend against one or how to use it defensively.

Find a teacher or sign up with a school and learn how to use the thing and then practice. Almost any idiot can pick up a gun and pretend it is a magic wand that will strike his enemy dead and be half way correct. If you don't work at learning how to use a knife and defend against a knife you are going to be out of luck.

Byron ponts out that there are weapons better than the knife to defend with and that will allow you to defend against a knife and he's right. I've trained with knives for years and I know that a guy with a measly 3 ft stick is likely to beat me down before I can get to him with the knife unless I just dive in. If I don't he's going to beat my brains out. Learn stick and knife. Learn empty hand. Invest some sweat and time or don't bother.
 
One more thing that I forgot to mention.

+1 on the "Cut and Run", (attack only as a way to clear an escape route)

Knife fighting gets very difficult to prove self defense because you have to be so close to the BG. My instructor told us that (in our state) any attack with a knife to a part of the body that has organs in it (head, torso, privates) can be considered attempted murder by the DA. His class focused on attacking limbs in order to disable but not kill your opponent.

My instructor was NOT A LAWYER, but he did spend a lot of time trainning LEOs and Correction Facilties staff so I feel that he knew more about it than your average joe. I believe that you have a better chance of proving self defense in a shooting than a stabing. However, it is better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.
 
One of the best tips about knife fighting (other than advising someone to take a class that deals with this, to practise frequently and to stay in 'fighting fit' shape) is to remember that your knife isn't your only weapon. You've still got a hand to strike or grab with. The odds are very good that your opponent will lock their eyes onto that shiny (or tac-black) blade that you've got in your hand and do everything in their power to defend against that one percieved threat, forgetting that you've got another hand available. When I train students, I'll hold a redknife (or a black marker!) and make some movie-style slashes in the air with it, then punch with my 'weak' hand, almost ALWAYS goes through. After you've got a punch in, just like any other combo, go in with the other hand.



I just realized that this post was about knife DEFENSE. So, reverse the lesson. Remember to keep your eyes on both of the guys hands. That blade is dangerous, but he could use his un-watched hand as a lead.

Of course, if you are facing a guy with a knife and you are unarmed, you messed up somewhere ;)
 
Of course, if you are facing a guy with a knife and you are unarmed, you messed up somewhere
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It's why I shock people and say "I'd be grateful as hell if I had ever been in a knife fight." You see, those few times when someone showed a knife I wasn't holding anything. And as Martha Stewart would say "That's not a Good Thing" :eek:
 
HSO

No offense taken. You are right in that Cold Steel is about how to kill with a blade. I’ve always thought that it was a good starting point for someone wanting to learn to use a knife. Myself all the knife I carry is a small Barlow pocket knife with a two and a quarter inch blade. If I had to defend against a knife or any other weapon it would be with a double tap COM from my ccw.
 
If I had to defend against a knife or any other weapon it would be with a double tap COM from my ccw.
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This is the mistaken thinking we all have until we spend a little hands-on time with mixed weapons training. In the 3 violent street attacks I've experienced there was only time to draw a weapon in one instance. The others occured so quickly and unpredictably that what I had in my hands at that moment, and the training I had prevously put in, were all that there was room for. The gun is no more magic than Harry Potter's wand is and anyone that thinks they can draw a weapon from concealment when they are attacked without warning is either beyond exceptionally fast and skilled or lacks the training and experience to understand what being behind the curve is truely like.

If you are serious about self defense you will not let the gun become your crutch.
 
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