knife if you arent trained with one

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I was placing an order in drive thru with my seat belt on, window completely down. I had my revolver in my pants pocket. I watched someone through my left side mirror. He was at my left rear bumper and dropped something shiny. As he picked it up I noticed that it looked like a silver credit card size box cutter. Like a sprinter he bolted for the driver window which was completely open. I slammed on the gas. And was hoping that he would not reach my window. The electric car window goes up slowly. So the only way to avoid the situation was putting gas. I must have barely ecsaped his knife. There is a lag in the accelerator. He must have realized when my car continued to acclerate into a turn that I saw him. My tires squealed into the turn. I didn't even have time to turn my head to see the BG. This all happened in my side mirror. When the cops asked for weight and height. I could not tell because things appear different in the side mirror.

Like I said, he must have got really close to slashing my face. I took the only option that I had. Reaching for my gun would have taken too long. I chose not to go hand to knife with my seat belt on.

I recall reading that one should have the gun close at hand while driving. This is also a previous thread. In this situation, I should have had my gun in better position. I am very lucky the guy did not reach the window. If he had, I would have had trouble reaching for my gun. What could have happened, I am sure yall can figure the rest out from here.

This reminds me of something that I read about officer training. That some say that if encountered with a knife, they will pull out their gun. The students were given their gun and a wide latitude of how to handle an interrogation of a suspect with a concealed knife. The students were already informed that there is a knife hidden. During this training experiment, only one % of the students were able to pull his gun out in time to defend himself from serious or fatal injury. 90% of students were critically injured within 5 seconds regardless of their holstered gun.
 
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FerFAL said:
"Is it legal to stand my ground or am I obligated by law to try to Run away first?

How would you Defuse a situation?"

Sometimes you have to use good old common sense. If you're being attacked, turning your back to your attacker is a pretty bad idea. Are you sure you can outrun your attacker or are you only exposing your back for an attack that will drop you to the floor and get killed?
I'd move away, if the attacker keeps coming and you don't believe you can outrun him or don't have means of doing so, then you have every right to protect yourself.
If everything could be solved just by running away then there would be no need for self defense laws.

FerFAL
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Hey Ferfal, haven't seen you around here. :)

How old are you Snowman?

What do you guys think about carrying a Kubotan for SD?
 
When in the car, I keep a 9mm holstered and wedged between the seat and consol with a round chambered. (safety on but easy to click off). the holster never slips, thanks to my 230 lbs. and the pistol slips out nicely. In some of the areas I have to drive when I take my red neck country butt to the city, I breathe a bit easier. I actually try to keep an eye ahead and time it so I miss the red lights. My brother took a round in the dash of his Trans Am a few years ago during a car jacking attempt. He was lucky to have hit the gas and duck at just the right time. May not have been the smart thing to do, but at the time people in KC were getting shot even if they gave up the car.
 
The more I read the more I realize I need to get back into martial arts training. It's really the best defensive system for the majority of attacks and has the lowest legal liabilities.
 
I gotta say if you have a knife in your hand and run up on my truck at a drive through the gun shouldnt be your worry. Caught between the brick wall and the fender should be.
I will avoid confrontation in most circumstances, I can think of many more weapons I would rather use. If cornered and left no choice, what choice is there?
Thinking someone is going to go all Ninja knife fighter on you so you wont fight back is like rolling in a ball and hoping the bully wont hurt you that bad. I would guess with the average person armed with a knife you would be far better armed with a broken mop handle than he is with his knife.
 
Well, I have 10 years of Tae Kwon Do, 3rd degree. But I wasn't trained to disarm someone through a car window with my seatbelt on. Disarms are hard enough. One of our students had to disarm a gun through his car window. But the BG was already at the window.

I didn't want to give him the chance satisfaction of putting permanent marks on my face. I've seen the slash scar of someone's throat.
 
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@ Strambo:


Quote:
Simply put: If you are not a Master in the art of knife fighting dont get one for self defense.
Why not? Most aggravated assaults with knives are committed by criminals. Most prison aggravated assaults and murders...are with improvised knives. So, the most experienced people in our society at doing violence w/ edged weapons aren't anywhere close to being "masters" in knife fighting arts, or anything close to it. Do a youtube search for something like "prison shankings". See any use or "knife fighting" martial arts style techniques? Master or expert level movement and application?

I am under the impression that in your post "self defense" and "killing/ murder'/aggravated assault and so on" are things that substitute each other...which is a bit disturbing for my sensitive soul.

Of course a knife is a deadly weapon, thats obvious and I never doubted that!!!

But our purpose is not to kill the other person (at all costs) but to come out unharmed. You gain nothing in lying next to a thug while he and you bleed to death.

A knife is a weapon of ambush, surprise and attack...most effective when used on the offensive side. Your examples speak of only that use of knives. The OP asked for a defensive (!!!) means/ weapon.



Carsten
 
My rule of thumb for brandishing: don't.

I will never get anything out of tipping my hand to a potential or actual aggressor. Respectful but assertive de-escalation goes hand-in-hand with keeping your weapon(s) hidden but ready. You might even be able to have your hand on your weapon, ready for presentation, without the perp's knowledge. Turn your weapon side away from them, retreat if possible, put distance and/or physical barriers between them and you. You could even complete a surreptitious draw, given certain circumstances, without their knowledge.

Keep your weapons and intentions absolutely secret until the moment you make your move. Whenever possible, maintain the advantages of surprise, initiative, distance, public credibility, etc.

Whether you're striking with a bare hands, an object of some kind, a knife, or a gun... it should be a surpise. At the most, the aggressor should figure out that you've taken hold of something that could be a weapon... but not know what. Uncertainty can put them on shaky footing. I wrote about a situation like this in another post. My body language, eye contact and facial expression were helpful, but so was the fact that the potential aggressor couldn't see my hands. He changed his mind because he didn't know what was behind door number one.

Witnesses should be able to say that you were attempting to end the confrontation, to disengage and leave the aggressor in peace.

All of that being said, I would avoid using an edged weapon for defense... unless it was huge. The kind of street-legal knives we can pocket will not be easy to use decisively, even by experts. I would rather leave it folded, wrap my thumb over the rounded end, and use the pointy end as a bludgeon. If I must fight with such a tool, it is in conjunction with a furious attempt to quickly daze or stun the offender and create an opening for escape. If I am defending my wife or child, then I may have to stick around at the risk of my own life to try and "win" the fight. In all other instances, the objective is to escape the fight in one piece... preferably before there's much of a fight.

Oh... and DON'T FIGHT FAIR and don't get into pissing contests, arguments, showdowns, stare-offs, etc. in the first place. Mind your own business, expect (or demand, if necessary) that other people mind theirs, and make it home for dinner.

.
 
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Knives. Shudder.

Already mentioned, but I'll hash it again: "If you get into a knife fight, you will get cut".

Real masters of the knife, like the guys who practice Kali (check out the extras on the movie "The Hunted" to see them) are bloody scary in action.

Just a suggestion, but if you can't carry a gun, an expandable impact weapon like an ASP baton might be better.
 
Knife laws can vary from town to town in your state -

There are NO uniform laws regarding even posession or carrying certain specific types of knives - what might be seen as legal in one town may be illegal 5 miles away, not to mention varying widely from state to state.
It is not at all like gun laws.
If the local PD has any intent to charge you with anything in the aftermath of such an incident, the knife might be seen as a deadly weapon, as would a sap, club, stick, etc. It is really up to the DA and the magistrates as to what they want to charge you with, depending on the circumstances.

You seem to be counting on display of a knife to stop some sort of attack - I would not recommend this-it's a great way to get killed.
I had some-very little and very long ago-intro to using knives in the military, and I would not consider using a knife as a weapon till there was absolutely no other option. I'd prefer a large rock if I could find one handy. I would certainly never recommend relying on a knife if you have NO training or experience in the reality of using one - you WILL be injured by it.

I'd rather go unarmed than rely on a knife for self defense.
Fortunately for me, I have been carrying a firearm for several decades. My pocket knife is a tool, not a weapon.
mark
 
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My pocket knife is a tool, not a weapon.
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Lets hope that this post doesn't come back to haunt you when someone breaks into your house wielding a tool.

Knives are weapons, less effective than firearms in some scenarios, more effective in others.

you seem to be counting on display of a knife to stop some sort of attack - I would not recommend this-it's a great way to get killed.
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Being attacked is a great way to get killed. I fail to see the danger in deploying a knife / gun / rock / hammer if you are being attacked already...
 
Uh oh... it's deteriorating...

Let's stick to what we know:

1. Flashing a knife will get you into just as much trouble, if not more, than flashing a gun.

2. Knives have all of the disadvantages of guns, but none of the advantages.

3. Knives give the BG's a way better fighting chance. They will probably try to take it from you and gut you with it, after they find a way to club you senseless with a better weapon.

4. It is generally illegal to carry a knife that is long enough to be a reliable defensive weapon.

I agree with the minority voice that a knife is a deadly weapon, and that it could have some deterrant value. However, I have a much better chance of utilizing almost any blunt weapon I could lay my hands on. I am not a ninja assassin, capable of employing 2.5" edged weapons with exceptional lethality. I am far more capable of incapacitating someone by hammering them with my folded knife.

Hopefully we never find ourselves on either end of the knife in reality... and I would MUCH rather be on the friendly side of a gun, club, axe, table leg, chair, coffee pot, ironing board, rock, stick, lamp, pool cue, door, vehicle, stapler, fire extinguisher, frying pan, curtain rod... hell... even an empty gun.

.
 
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Let's say you pull a knife. Let's say this knife has a 3 inch blade. something you would be inclined to carry on a normal basis, one of the "tactical folder" types.

Let's say I'm your opponent. I have a length of metal pipe, a baseball bat, or some other long solid object.

Before you even get close to sticking me in a vital area with that knife, you've had your head or another body part smashed by whatever I'm holding. You're fading in and out of consciousness, I grab your knife, and slit your throat.

Think about that. How easy is it for someone to find ANY object that gives them that kind of reach? It's pretty easy. Knife tactics or no, I have plenty of time to beat you to death with a blunt object.

To use that knife as a weapon, you need surprise. A hell of a lot of surprise. Your average street altercation will not give you that.
 
Hm. No one really saying what I've been taught, maybe Scoutsabout.

I cant carry my 9mm at work OR leave it in the car. So my training is to carry a small (3 inch blade) in my pocket or hand, hidden....closed but ready.....and if grabbed, flick it open and use it to cause as much local damage as possible to gain escape. Forearms, thighs, etc. Small moves are possible even when restrained. I was taught that this will discourage most single attackers.

So I have practiced this somewhat, esp getting the knife open quickly and subtly, but cant say this constitutes training.

THis was recommended to me over pepper spray...which they also said has it's place but they felt this was better for my situation at work.
 
Craven said:
Let's say I'm your opponent. I have a length of metal pipe, a baseball bat, or some other long solid object.

Before you even get close to sticking me in a vital area with that knife, you've had your head or another body part smashed by whatever I'm holding. You're fading in and out of consciousness, I grab your knife, and slit your throat.
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Not every scenario favors a bat or knife or gun... Knives (the kind most of carry) are last ditch weapons. Better than nothing and dead useful in many scenarios that have nothing to do with combat and a lot that do.
 
Scoutsabout said:
2. Knives have all of the disadvantages of guns, but none of the advantages.
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Really?? I have never seen a knife get a type 1, 2 or 3 stoppage... I have never seen a FTF on a knife...

Scoutsabout said:
3. Knives give the BG's a way better fighting chance. They will probably try to take it from you and gut you with it, after they find a way to club you senseless with a better weapon.
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Lack of mindset would be the issue here... Not lack of ability. You state that a knife has the ability to do the job, but only in the hands of the BG's... So the issue would be mindset.
 
I'm no knife expert...

...but in Marine boot camp...we learned to fight with empty rifles using Pugil sticks...huge Qtips...the size of M14s, which would knock you on your butt...but not do serious damage...then they taught us basic knife/bayonet in hand tactics...then put us with a rubber knife up against the Pugil stick...and I, the slowest-moving, most uncoordinated in the company...beat the stick every time...I tagged the opponent with the knife in the torso each and every time...
...I wouldn't choose a knife...wouldn't threaten with one (BIKER nailed that one)...but I ALWAYS carry one with a 2-4" blade...they won't fit every situation, but if that's all you have...don't give up...I've seen men get killed by a short knife...if I have to get that close, things are already pretty bad...
 
Some tools are highly ineffective compared to others though.

My track coach used to have a saying that went "I hope you ate your wheaties this morning, we're gonna move a mountain with a shovel!" It basically meant we were in for a particularly brutal workout.

Now, in theory, it's entirely possible to move a mountain with hand tools. You just break it up into chunks, and move the chunks. But if you're trying to move this mountain faster than the other guys who are using dynamite... you're going to lose.
 
I carry a concealed handgun every day, sometimes a belt gun and a pocket BUG. I also carry a Spyderco Endura clipped IWB just in front of my right front pocket. I don't think of the knife as a primary self defense weapon. However, I spent 5-6 years in empty hand martial arts training and came to a few conclusions. Just my own experience, not universal truths.

First, even after I earned a black belt, I knew I was no match for guys who grew up fighting on the street most of their lives. Second, we did some training with both short and long staff. Lesson for me was any weapon is better than bare hands. That includes my Spyderco. Third, as others have posted, mindset is more important than technique whether empty hands, impact weapon, firearm, or blade. Fourth, situational awareness, de-escalation, and running away beats any fight, any time. Situational awareness includes not going to places where violence is likely.
 
mbt2001 said:
Really?? I have never seen a knife get a type 1, 2 or 3 stoppage... I have never seen a FTF on a knife...



Lack of mindset would be the issue here... Not lack of ability. You state that a knife has the ability to do the job, but only in the hands of the BG's... So the issue would be mindset.
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Yes, knives have all the disadvantages. Close range, feeble stopping power, weak as bludgeons, weak deterrent value. Even if your gun jams, it is better as a bludgeon than a cute little 4" knife.

I suppose a knife would be better than nothing, if you and the BG are both in an open area without any makeshift weapons. Still, you can stab him a bunch and seal his fate... but that doesn't mean he'll stop. He may very well become twice as determine and continue a more vicious assault until you're dead... then bleed to death himself.

You misunderstood my other opinion. I meant that *using a knife in self defence* gives the BG a better fighting chance, especially if you've tipped your hand by flashing it. He's gonna be like "oh, he's got a knife... well, I'll get my knife out too" and now you're in a lose-lose situation. Better yet, he'll say "oh, he's got a knife... I'll pick up this (anything) and beat him down." Or something like "he pulled a knife on me, I'm going to follow him until I find a better weapon."

If you're going to use ANY weapon, don't tip your hand.

Better to hold your cards close to the chest and capitolize on the element of surprise... especially if you've only got a folding knife, which is still only slightly better than nothing. Let the turd think he's getting into a fist fight, if you can't de-escelate, and surprise him with a low feint and *wham* a swift crack of the knife, used as a bludgeon, to the bridge of his nose. Or hit him in the throat. Still, this is all just 4" of advantage in a fight that is measured in body weight, skill and aggressiveness.

The use of any weapon is a martial art unto itself. However, the relative effectiveness of a weapon to *quickly incapacitate* a determined aggressor has a drastic influence on the defender's survivability. Yes, a knife is better than nothing... but only by about four inches... if you know how to use it. Compounding on what the other guys said, anyone who's got bare-hands skill would be pretty well matched against a doofus with a 4" knife.

I think the undercurrent of this thread is about knowing how to use a knife in conjunction with bare-hand techniques. I am only suggesting that surprise, mindset, violence of action, and any blunt force weapon is better suited to ending a fight... even a folded knife, used as a bludgeon.

.
 
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