In recent thinking and training, I've come to realize something regarding inexperienced "knifers": that they tend to back you up against something to bulldog you with stab after stab. Once they get you backed into a wall, corner, or other obstacle, you can pretty much kiss your butt goodbye. The off hand will be pinning you and their knife hand will be sending your soul to the afterlife. So, when you're training, make sure that you have the ability to move out of these situations and how to not get yourself backed in in the first place.
Knife Observation
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I agree with Lonestar 100%.
If your going to be geeting in up close and ugly with someone in a knifefight; you have to understand the old adage 'Nobody Wins in a Knifefight' is pretty much a true reprisentation of two guys face-to-face wtih blades.
Considering most tactical folders are only *just* long enough to damage something vital with a stab to the torso, though I have seen some impressivly built 7" and 8-inchers hitting stores lately; you really don't have a lot of room for error.
Angled movement is the key, espeically if you've got a good eye for body language, you can see which side the Mugger/Punkass favors, and move to it's opposite; though if it's knife to knife; it's usually pretty obvious.
If you bum rush a guy with a knife, even if you win, expect some new dermal topography when your done.
If your going to be geeting in up close and ugly with someone in a knifefight; you have to understand the old adage 'Nobody Wins in a Knifefight' is pretty much a true reprisentation of two guys face-to-face wtih blades.
Considering most tactical folders are only *just* long enough to damage something vital with a stab to the torso, though I have seen some impressivly built 7" and 8-inchers hitting stores lately; you really don't have a lot of room for error.
Angled movement is the key, espeically if you've got a good eye for body language, you can see which side the Mugger/Punkass favors, and move to it's opposite; though if it's knife to knife; it's usually pretty obvious.
If you bum rush a guy with a knife, even if you win, expect some new dermal topography when your done.
Deathrider1579
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My old sensei used to tell us the rules of a knife fight before we would start training and if I remember the first three they went something like this:
First rule of a knife fight is do not get into a knife fight
The second rule of a knife fight is that every one in a knife fight is going to get cut
The third rule of a knife fight is always cut in your first move
And I think the forth rule was something along the lines of aiming for the hand with the knife in it but I don't remember.
I think rule #1 and #2 are most important
-DR
First rule of a knife fight is do not get into a knife fight
The second rule of a knife fight is that every one in a knife fight is going to get cut
The third rule of a knife fight is always cut in your first move
And I think the forth rule was something along the lines of aiming for the hand with the knife in it but I don't remember.
I think rule #1 and #2 are most important
-DR
sicario103
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Any type of folders or small knives are more than enough to kill somone, not just 7"s.
Yes movility = good defense. Harder to hit at a moving object. Never take more than 1 or 2 steps back, keep to lateral movements, use your surroundings and never give your back to him.
But having your back against a wall does not mean the end of the world, though you should best try to avoid. Just remember lateral movements.
Though I agree that most untrained knife assailant will more likely attack in a linear pattern, it is also fair to say most will throw will swings and trusts. But just because somone trains in MMA or whatever self-defense course does not mean they can disarm or fight somone with a knive with just your bare hands.
Me for example, I would stick to movement and pump him full of lead the first chance I get.
Yes movility = good defense. Harder to hit at a moving object. Never take more than 1 or 2 steps back, keep to lateral movements, use your surroundings and never give your back to him.
But having your back against a wall does not mean the end of the world, though you should best try to avoid. Just remember lateral movements.
Though I agree that most untrained knife assailant will more likely attack in a linear pattern, it is also fair to say most will throw will swings and trusts. But just because somone trains in MMA or whatever self-defense course does not mean they can disarm or fight somone with a knive with just your bare hands.
Me for example, I would stick to movement and pump him full of lead the first chance I get.
crofrog
Member
The compression the tissue see as you punch someone can make a knife penetrate substantially more tissue than there length when used forcibly. Also if properly targeted a knife's has the ability to easily destroy and render inoperable limbs.
DFW1911
Member
I agree with this. I think one of the problems we witness in training videos of all sorts is that many place an over emphasis on the technique being shown AND and seem to discount the ability(ies) of the person being attacked.
I recently was a guest at a friend's m/arts school for some free sparring. Why this sort of thing is important is because the students there don't know what I bring to the table and the converse is equally true.
What we all learned was their particular style and practicing methodology was very open to Judo / Aiki Jutsu counters and they really had no ground game whatsoever.
All-in-all it was a great time for each of us and we all walked away with some new knowledge.
Good point, Lonestar.
Take care,
DFW1911
LightningJoe
Member
I've never fought a person armed with a knife as all the people who've attacked me with knives came in twos and threes and that's more than I feel able to handle without a gun. But it occurs to me that I might rather be unarmed against a single, knife-wielding attacker rather than armed with a knife. I agree no one wins a knife fight, but maybe your chances of winning are best if there's just one knife in the fight, even if it's the other guy's? Grab his hand or weapon and grapple?
1911 guy
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Don't mistake crude for inexperienced.
The tactic of backing you into a corner might not be finnesse at it's finest, but it works. If I find a weak spot in your defense and it's a jab rather than a slice, I'll exploit it multiple times. Knife fighting is like lethal boxing. I've only been in one knife fight and that was resolved by a third party. I had a rifle and couldn't get enough distance to bring the muzzle up. Walked into it at low ready, got the forearm grabbed with one of his hands, the knife going at me with the other. The faster I backed up, the faster he charged. Ten years of hindsight, there were other options, but I was stuck in back-pedal mode. The odd thing about knives. Training with firearms seemed to innoculate us against irrational fear of being hurt by them. Cautious, but not "skeered". When I realized I was being knifed, I was terrified. I've still got some nifty scars and a deep appreciation for the guy behind me.
The tactic of backing you into a corner might not be finnesse at it's finest, but it works. If I find a weak spot in your defense and it's a jab rather than a slice, I'll exploit it multiple times. Knife fighting is like lethal boxing. I've only been in one knife fight and that was resolved by a third party. I had a rifle and couldn't get enough distance to bring the muzzle up. Walked into it at low ready, got the forearm grabbed with one of his hands, the knife going at me with the other. The faster I backed up, the faster he charged. Ten years of hindsight, there were other options, but I was stuck in back-pedal mode. The odd thing about knives. Training with firearms seemed to innoculate us against irrational fear of being hurt by them. Cautious, but not "skeered". When I realized I was being knifed, I was terrified. I've still got some nifty scars and a deep appreciation for the guy behind me.
A knife is best employed as a complete surprize to an attacker - regardless of what they are armed with.
Pull your belt off, or anything else that can be used as a weak counterattack - or even a jacket. This may create some over confidence on the part of the attacker. When the opportunity presents itself - draw and stick him in one as continuous movement. This is one of the reasons I prefer fixed blades over folders when possible.
This is as good an example as any of the reasons that several defensive weapons be carried as opposed to just one type. I am not a great fan of pepper sprays, but in this case even if not decisive in itself, it might allow an effective counter attack with knife or other implement.
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Pull your belt off, or anything else that can be used as a weak counterattack - or even a jacket. This may create some over confidence on the part of the attacker. When the opportunity presents itself - draw and stick him in one as continuous movement. This is one of the reasons I prefer fixed blades over folders when possible.
This is as good an example as any of the reasons that several defensive weapons be carried as opposed to just one type. I am not a great fan of pepper sprays, but in this case even if not decisive in itself, it might allow an effective counter attack with knife or other implement.
------------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
Harold Mayo
Member
Not to start flaming, but that statement carries the implication that you're ineffective if you're not moving in angles (i.e. "good" fighter vs. "bad" fighter). I would rather be the surviving and non-crippled winner of a fight of any sort and have someone berate me for not doing something that would make me a "good fighter" than be dead and admired for my angular movement.
If the situation calls for straight in and out, then that's what it takes. If it calls for angular movement, then that's what needs to be done. Just because a fighter angles off rather than coming straight in doesn't make him better than one who does not.
Good points all around! Two that stick out to me are:
1911 guy -
This is very true! I didn't mean to imply that only the inexperienced use bulldogging after backing you in; just that inexperienced people tend to revert to this method often. Probably because it can work so well with so little control of the actual weapon.
Harold -
Also very true. My personal style is more linear. I'm 5'5", 205 lbs right now but I still maintain a 36" waist. Since my legs and reach are short, I'm not exactly Muhammad Ali dancing around my opponents. I tend to simply try to run people over in training and in the few actual fights I've been in.
1911 guy -
This is very true! I didn't mean to imply that only the inexperienced use bulldogging after backing you in; just that inexperienced people tend to revert to this method often. Probably because it can work so well with so little control of the actual weapon.
Harold -
Also very true. My personal style is more linear. I'm 5'5", 205 lbs right now but I still maintain a 36" waist. Since my legs and reach are short, I'm not exactly Muhammad Ali dancing around my opponents. I tend to simply try to run people over in training and in the few actual fights I've been in.
This thread reminds me of the first time I as a (much, much younger) martial artist fought a Golden Gloves boxer...when I came to and my head eventually stopped ringing like the Liberty Bell, I completely changed my training strategies and regimens! LOL!
We have a really great episode of SHOOTING GALLERY coming up next season (the one that begins 1 January 2007) with Mike Janich titled "Knife Training for Gunfighters." It's pretty cutting edge stuff, and i think you guy'll like it.
Michael B
We have a really great episode of SHOOTING GALLERY coming up next season (the one that begins 1 January 2007) with Mike Janich titled "Knife Training for Gunfighters." It's pretty cutting edge stuff, and i think you guy'll like it.
Michael B
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