Large pistol magnum primers in rifles

[trekker73]

Hi gents, here in Australia we are having a primer shortage so I wondered if anyone has used large pistol magnum primers in rifles before. I know there are differences in the thickness, toughness and brisance of rifle and pistol primers in general and its not something I would normally enterain. However as the primer shortage has lasted a few years now( and some feel is government skullduggery) reloaders are starting to develope great depression style flexbility here. (Pistol shooters are also currently buying up bulk field 12ga shotshells to raid for powder being shotgun and pistol powders another unobtainable item)
Back to the subject the calibres I would be looking to prime are 30-30 and 444 marlin lever guns, maybe also a 308 win. And am referring to large pistol magnum( CCI ) specifically, not 'regular large pistol'..

 

[Y-T71]

Dimensionally, LG pistol primers aren't as tall as LG rifle primers unlike SM sizes which share all the same dimensions.

 

[jmorris]

Only in my 458 socom rifles but the case is made for them, not rifle primers.

 

[BBarn]

In addition to the dimensional differences, there are differences in design operating pressures. The LPPs are used in cartridges up to about 35kPSI. The 30-30 and 444 operate about 20% above that, and the 308 about 75% above that.

Good reasons to avoid the proposed practice.

 

[.38 Special]

If I was absolutely desperate, the first thing I would do is prime a few cases and see if my rifles will pop them. The dimensional difference is enough that they might work, and might not.

If they worked, I would then load a few 30-30s and 444s with minimum loads - or even lower, if I have a powder with which I am comfortable doing such things - and give them a try, paying very close attention to primer signs: pierced primers are the obvious concern here.

And again, unless I felt it extremely necessary, I simply wouldn't bother. (And I would consider the .308 simply unusable without rifle primers.)

 

[trekker73]

thanks fellas I am going to give this a miss then

 

[trekker73]

In addition to the dimensional differences, there are differences in design operating pressures. The LPPs are used in cartridges up to about 35kPSI. The 30-30 and 444 operate about 20% above that, and the 308 about 75% above that.

Good reasons to avoid the proposed practice.

Not true from the pressure point of view.

Large pistol primers will operate well over 35kpsi... most magnum pistol cartridges do. And for freedom arms/ruger only loads etc over 50 KPSI. Lever action pistol cartridges in a 94 or 92 rossi will run equal pressures to 444 marlin or 30-30 too.

 

[BBarn]

I looked again, and you are correct. Though most Mag pistols operate below 40kPSI, there are a few exceptions, like the 480 Ruger using LPPs loaded to 48kPSI. Cartridges over 50kPSI like the 454 Casull and 460 S&W are typically designed to be used with rifle primers. Published Ruger only 45 Colt loads are typically held well below 35kPSI.

 

[trekker73]

yes most the mag pistols can operate in excess of 40KPSI, the Euro CIP for 44mag is 40.5k or so itself. Hodgon data for 475 linebaugh also uses LPP at almost 50k psi.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I use large pistol magnum primers in rifle cartridges in black powder (Goex, Swiss, Pyrodex, Triple7) loads only.
I do not use large pistol magnum primers in smokeless powder loaded rifle cartridges. My son or grandson may inherit my rifles and ammo.

Large Pistol primer cups are a little bit shorter than large Rifle primer cups. That makes ne skittish about using large pistol primers magnum or standard in smokeless powder rifle loads.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Hi gents, here in Australia we are having a primer shortage so I wondered if anyone has used large pistol magnum primers in rifles before. I know there are differences in the thickness, toughness and brisance of rifle and pistol primers in general and its not something I would normally enterain. However as the primer shortage has lasted a few years now( and some feel is government skullduggery) reloaders are starting to develope great depression style flexbility here. (Pistol shooters are also currently buying up bulk field 12ga shotshells to raid for powder being shotgun and pistol powders another unobtainable item)
Back to the subject the calibres I would be looking to prime are 30-30 and 444 marlin lever guns, maybe also a 308 win. And am referring to large pistol magnum( CCI ) specifically, not 'regular large pistol'..

All the best down there.

 

[ballman6711]

I wouldn't use LPP's for .308, not even magnum primers. My shooting and reloading buddy just started loading .308 and didn't have any LRP's so he made a few with LPP's.

At the range I suggested he not fire them, but he insisted, so I told him to just fire one and then we would inspect it. What we found was a pinhole where the firing pin indent was, almost perfectly centered. He decided not to fire any more of them and said he would pull the rest down.

So it may work depending on the rifle, but it may end up etching your bolt/breech face.

I don't know the specifics of the load except that he used LPP's (don't know brand or type) and 150gr fmj's.

chris

 

[AJC1]

Two factors, one is will your firing pin reach to set the off and pressure. For 30-30 only the first factor limits you, and I watched people use them, and almost got their myself. I don't know about 444, but I would not go over 40kpsi the normal window for mag pistol loads.... 308 is a definite no unless your making ammo to shoot things costing you money. Shooting preditors killing livestock or trying to hurt you.... the destroying of a weapon to prevent being eaten isn't really a choice... you can get 308 brass that uses srp..... I'd be working hard to get some of that.

Lapua 308 Winchester Brass Large Rifle Primer Pocket Box of 100

Lapua World-class brass begins with high-quality raw materials and superior smelting and metallurgical competence. Throughout the production process,...

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[GeoDudeFlorida]

Looking at CIP standards the breaking point is probably around 62Kpsi as measured using CIP methods - SAMMI measures differently but they both arrive at the same, or nearly same, measure. I really couldn’t find a definitive statement from either regarding maximum pressure. I’m interpreting based on accepted maximums. As long as you keep your maximum peak pressure below 61Kpsi, you are probably not going to experience anything worse than a pierced primer, etched bolt face, etched firing pin and internal damage to the bolt. Going over 62Kpsi PEAK pressure is a risk of injury. You may blow out the entire primer and expose yourself to gas venting.

If you are going to use published data make sure - very sure - that you are using maximum peak, not maximum average pressures.

 

[jmorris]

In addition to the dimensional differences, there are differences in design operating pressures. The LPPs are used in cartridges up to about 35kPSI. The 30-30 and 444 operate about 20% above that, and the 308 about 75% above that.

Good reasons to avoid the proposed practice.

Makes you wonder why they used them in the super magnums at all.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Makes you wonder why they used them in the super magnums at all.

View attachment 1206732

Probably because some dang fool said, “There is no significant difference between a standard and magnum primer so why should I go out and buy any?” Then that dang fool hired a lawyer to get “compensation” for his (self-inflicted) injury.

That’s usually how it happens. IMO.

 

[Show Me]

So , with what all has been said LPP might be just fine for cast rifle loads and lower psi cartridges such as 7.62x39 ( sammi ) and 30 30. Reduced loads ect. If the fireing pin reaches. Just need to get up from the table and test.

 

[DMW1116]

My current target cast load for 30-30 is a standard LPP with just under 6 grains of W231 and a 135 grain Acme RNFP. I say all that to say it’s not a heavy load I’m asking the LPP to carry.