Lasers - does anyone actually use them?

[Mad Magyar]

I have them because I don't think I can count on being able to use the sights in a real situation.

In "real-life" situations, especially for the CCW guy who is about to be "blind-sided"-mugged, or whatever you want to call it: you don't have time to line-up "ol'Red"....We are not talking about being part of the police posse crouched behind a truck taking pot-shots at the BG. I see some of these "Bubbas" draped across their vehicle or standing prone at the range plinking away...Yep, they are great in that situation. I'm talking about PD issues where getting your shot off "the firstest" with being "the mostest". Iron sights or no sights: get the job done precisely w/speed.
Yes, I've had them, used them on previous pistols that were purchased with them on. (I took a hammer to them) I'm not trusting my life on a battery or going against my instincts and reflexes when firing. The S&W Challenge that was viewed on TV recently that was "laser/flashlight" total was a disaster for some of the best shooters in the world.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I hate them. They are a good tool for training, or in a situation where you can see your target but not your sights

That's the primary time when the laser is king, when you can't see the sights because it's too dark, or even if you aren't wearing your eye glasses.
It's said that 70-80 percent of gun fights take place in low light or darkness.

Because of the laser a shooter can be as fast and accurate when he can't see the sights as when he can. (usually faster and more accurate)
Personally, in most cases I'm as fast and accurate when using the laser in low light, as using the iron sights in daylight.

It's just my personal testing, but in testing my speed and accuracy with the laser compared to my speed and accuracy with a hand held light or even a gun mounted light I can usually get off a couple well aimed laser shots before firing the first iron sighted shot.

In daylight I use the iron sights.


At night, or maybe indoors, I use the laser.

 

[rc109a]

In low light they are great. I have trijicon sights on my issue weapon, and still like the laser. It provides me options and that is always good. The precision shot in lowlight is hard and this makes it that much easier. My wife shoots just as well in lowlight with and without the laser, but the laser is still easier. I think they are great when you practice with both laser and regular sights. if your not going to practice then neither will work good for you.

 

[M2 Carbine]

The S&W Challenge that was viewed on TV recently that was "laser/flashlight" total was a disaster for some of the best shooters in the world.

Most gun owners aren't the "best shooters in the world" and a gun mounted laser will help them.

I've found that some experienced shooters do poorly when first using the laser. Bottom line is they are too set in their ways and have the attitude that their way is the only way. And they expect to just pick up the laser and do as well as they do with iron sights.
After all, the movies show how easy the laser is to use, right.

A friend, a decent shot, didn't like the laser. He did poorly with it and like most he blamed it on the laser.
Later he was involved in a road shooting. He didn't fire any shots but saw just how useless his Glock 19's gun sights were in the dark in that fast moving situation.
He told me he was just going to have to learn to use the laser and he bought a Crimson Trace for the Glock.
After a little practice and a few hints he is more accurate and faster with the laser than his iron sights.

He actually can't shoot this well, or fast, with iron sights in daylight.

 

[PX15]

JMOfartO:

Well, the truth is I think most folks with great vision never give Lasers a 2nd thought... Even when they do they often think of them as "gimmicks", or go into the old "well, the battery might fail", etc..

I've NEVER heard of the batteries on a Crimson Trace Lasergrip "failing".... If you will do your part, and that part is simply to change out the batteries yearly as you would a smoke detector battery you will NEVER have to be concerned about a "battery failure".... If you are too stupid and too cheap to spend $2 per year on new batteries then IF the original batteries quit it wasn't a battery failure, it was a failure caused by a dumb owner .

I'm an old fart, and my eyesight is diminishing... My hands are not as steady as when I was a younger man, and between the bad eyes, shaky hands, the accuracy I once took for granted is gone.

Several years ago I had 4 snubbys.. Two Colt Cobras, one DS, and a model 49 J-frame Smith. I couldn't hit crap with any of them, and when I found myself about to buy ANOTHER snubby I took a moment to reflect and the conclusion I came to was to spend the money for the 5th snubby I wouldn't be able to shoot effectively on a set of new Crimson Trace Lasergrips for my J-frame.



I bought the original small "boot grip" Crimson Trace Lasergrips for my 49 and was AMAZED at the difference in accuracy when I shot it. It changed the snubby from inaccurate to extremely accurate.. I'm talking self defense range now, which is the only distance I shoot from anymore anyway..

Later I bought a new 638 and transferred the CT's over to it, and I'm even happier. (The 638 has a better target trigger and is easier to shoot).

Some time later I put a set of CT's on my Sig P239, and two days ago I put a set on my S&W 5906, which is my "bump in the night" home defense pistol.

I am a BIG fan of CT's.. I have been a member of their forum for years, and a finer bunch of folks you cannot imagine. The CT's on my Sig and 5906 came with free batteries for life.. That's great, but the battery life is so long that they never seem to wear out and I replace them annually (as with smoke detectors) just "because"...

I would recommend a person shopping for a laser product to by-pass the cheap stuff and just go ahead and bite the bullet for a quality laser.. I think the Crimson Trace and the LaserMax are the best of the bunch.. They cost more, but as with most things you generally get what you pay for.

I always crack up when I see a post from someone asking for advice about buying a good CHEAP firearm, because if you expect that firearm to defend your life in a crisis I shouldn't think buying a "cheap" gun is the place you want to save money.

If you are a bit strapped now, save up THEN buy a quality firearm, and a quality Laser, don't screw around and expect top performance from a cheap gun or cheap laser, you generally won't get it anyway.

When you read disparaging posts about lasers in general you are usually getting opinions from the folks who either : 1. Have great natural vision, and scoff at visual aids. Or, 2. Have never tried a quality laser for themselves. There was a time when lasers were bulky, short battery life, and expensive, but those days are long gone.. Ok, a little expensive still for the good ones. But they work, and they work well.

Just personal opinion, no offense to contrary opinions.

Best Wishes,

Jesse

 

[M2 Carbine]

I'm an old fart, and my eyesight is diminishing... My hands are not as steady as when I was a younger man, and between the bad eyes, shaky hands, the accuracy I once took for granted is gone.

Good post.

Really sucks doesn't it. I'm pushing 71. This week my right hand, after some J Frame shooting, has been too unsteady. Funny thing is my left hand is still steady, so I just shoot left handed.

A while back I shot without my glasses. Good practice, I need to do more of it.

 

[Handyguy]

PX15- Great post & I must say that I find the CT's absolutely great for these tired old eyes! Have them on a Sig 239, S&W m&p, and even a little KelTec .32. Works for me.

 

[Lonestar49]

A different "view"

In "real-life" situations, especially for the CCW guy who is about to be "blind-sided"-mugged, or whatever you want to call it: you don't have time to line-up "ol'Red"....

...

I respectfully disagree, and here's why.. Say someone gets in a sucker punch and closes one of my eyes due to a (possible) immediate cut, or swollen, eye as I, or one, fall/s back, or falls down, whatever.. The CT grips on my P229 are always ON, without usage of the battery, yet, in my case, whenever I draw out, with one hand, or with a 2-hand grip, the laser beams-up (goes on) because of where the on-off button is located (on both sides of the CT grip). It is activated, naturally, and with only one eye, and no time to really "sight", other than draw, point, and shoot, I have to say, as others have, in either a slow controlled shot, with both eyes open, or a fast shot, with only one good eye, if were such the case, the bullet/s are going to the where the red dot is hitting.. less any trigger jerk, etc.

That is a proven fact, with some 1500 rounds of practice with the CT grips in use.. be it up close, or out to 63ft..

I love it when I hear people say: "they're a crutch".. "takes the joy out of real shooting.." etc., etc.

I like "the help".. if needed, and used, daytime or night time.. as the "point and shoot" with both eyes open, with them, or not, all goes to proficiency in that skill, with both eyes open or, in the case of a, sudden loss of one eye.

OMMV, but in my book, they're a added element of improving one's shooting skills, added to the rest of what one has learned.


Ls

 

[Mad Magyar]

I've NEVER heard of the batteries on a Crimson Trace Lasergrip "failing"....

I can take any criticism aimed at my opinion, no problem. But, let's take a look at your statement. The main sponsor of the S&W Challenge w/Laser lights was Crimson Trace.
Do you think they would have allowed any of the top competitors in the world (9 of the best) to fire w/o checking and making sure they had the best set-up possible? Guess what, it failed 1 competitor (11%) and was brought out in the video and one-shooter wasn't too happy! It's like gun mfgr's sending out pistols for review in the gun rags, do you think they are sending out just any one from the assembly line? Come on....I see your point of view and have no problems with it, but have an open mind for mine....Give me one for plinking, but not for PD....Let me put it another way, I'm on the range weekly, not sitting around not shooting regularly theoretically thinking what a great apparatus this could be. As far as night-time shooting, IMHO, this would be the worst time I would want in giving away my position w/Ol'Red....

 

[Phil DeGraves]

1. Have great natural vision, and scoff at visual aids. Or, 2. Have never tried a quality laser for themselves.

No and no. I have tried lasers in some scenario based range drills with a group of instructors. All of us who tried it, found that we did better and faster by relying on the sights.

 

[rondog]

Man, IMHO, they're for split-second self-defense against an attacker that's within a few feet of you, or right on top of you. They're not for target shooting, competition, police or combat use. They can be used for that stuff, sure, but of course there's going to be limitations. But their main use, IMO, is close quarters defense. At least that's why I have them.

When I'm target shooting or plinking, I turn them off.

 

[Kleanbore]

My CCW instructor uses them on SD weapons (only) and recommended them.

Accordingly I bought a 642 with a laser grip. As stated above they're great for old eyes and intended for fast shots at short range.

At first I had problems because I was looking also for a sight picture. You don't do that to hit body mass rushing at you from close range.

I wouldn't be without it.

Cost? There are some savings that you cannot afford!

 

[M2 Carbine]

Give me one for plinking, but not for PD....Let me put it another way, I'm on the range weekly, not sitting around not shooting regularly theoretically thinking what a great apparatus this could be. As far as night-time shooting, IMHO, this would be the worst time I would want in giving away my position w/Ol'Red....

I'm on the range several evenings a week shooting with lasers, "not sitting around not shooting regularly theoretically thinking what a great apparatus this could be".
I know the lasers weakness and strong points because I constantly practice live fire with it on pistols, rifles and shotguns.

As far as night-time shooting, IMHO, this would be the worst time I would want in giving away my position w/Ol'Red

This statement is typical of someone that (no offense) doesn't know what they are talking about. If you knew the proper use of the laser, you would not be giving away your position.
The laser is not a flashlight and isn't used like one.
Unless the laser is used for intimidation, all the BG should see is, maybe, a flash of red as he is hit by a bullet.

No and no. I have tried lasers in some scenario based range drills with a group of instructors. All of us who tried it, found that we did better and faster by relying on the sights.

I laugh every time I hear something like this. It's the movie mentality.
"I should be an instant expert with the laser because I see how easy lasers are to use in the movies."

Just how long did it take the "group" members to gain their level of proficiency with iron sights?
And yet they dismiss the laser because they can't instantly do better with it than the method they have been using for years.


Excuse me it's getting late, time for some laser/light practice.

 

[krs]

I've got Crimson Trace on my Colt New Agent. The pistol is made without conventional sights and is a SD configuation that calls for point shooting - the extension of the pistol and arm to point at a target as you might point with a finger.

It's a method that requires looking at the target instead of at the sights and as such is a natural for a laser sight device.

I'm finding that it works extremely well. Once zero'd the CT light point on a target IS where my bullet will impact a target at the ranges I've been working it which are 7, 10, and 15 yards at home. I was pretty much amazed to find that it works as advertised and is not just some movie/TV gimmickry.

I'm still learning/experimenting and trusting the method as the whole concept runs counter to all of tradional pistol shooting fundamentals that I learned long ago.

 

[akanotken]

Haven't read the whole thread, this may have been covered. I'd worry about the ability to pick up the dot on non paper targets that need shooting. I do think it'll help once the dot is acquired by the shooters eyes.

Two pretty different style shooting, eyes trained along the top of the gun, vs looking at the dot (I'd guess you want your gun lower to set up your full vision picture.

I'm skeptical, but would love to prove myself wrong. BTW, I have one that came in a pistol deal a long time ago. (a light laser combo, m6 IIRC). It's in a drawer somewhere. I just don't have that pistol anymore .. or any pistol with a rail for that matter. Maybe a good reason to "participate" in S&W's sale on M&P's Like I need a reason!

 

[mourneblade]

I have two lasers, one of for each gun. At first I really liked using the lasers, but since I mainly practice without a laser, I think my instinct will be to go to the night sights. The other problem I've had is my TLR-2 flying off my gun when I shoot. I have to tighten it down so the quick release is really no longer "quick". I have used the lasers to practice double-action trigger pulls, which is nice.

 

[neviander]

I was kinda taken by a flashlight laser combo I saw at a shop in Tyler the other day. If confronted at night, I like the idea of not only being able to shoot what you're aiming at, but also see it at the same time; for HD purposes. Don't remember the brand though. There was a selector switch for light/laser/laser,light.

 

[M2 Carbine]

frs,
FWTW try this, you may find it's fast and accurate.
Also akanotken check it out.

frs, as you already said, focus your eyes on the target. DO NOT look for the laser dot it just slows you down, and of course don't stick the gun in front of your face. You will see the laser without looking for it and you will naturally bring the dot to where you are looking.

From the holster or with the gun pointed some where off target,
1. Bring the gun up quickly to somewhere below eye level and pointed at the target. (point shooting)

2. Light the laser as the gun is pointed at the target. The dot should be within a few inches to a foot of where your eyes are focused.

3. Continue to move the dot to the center as you pressure the trigger. With a little practice your laser dot will hit COM a split second before the bullet.

The whole thing should be a smooth continuous motion that will get faster and more accurate with practice.
Works for me.

 

[R&J]

We've got lasers for all three of our Glock pistols:

G17: LaserMax UNI-GREEN Rail-Mounted Laser
G19: LaserMax Guide Rod Laser
G21: LaserMax Guide Rod Laser

The Crimson Trace product is excellent, but I don't like it for Glock pistols...

I liked the first LaserMax (in my G21) so much, that I ordered one for Judy's G19! Both have proved excellent--rugged and accurate!

I was given the UNI-GREEN, green-beamed rail-mounted laser as a gift in June, and I'm very pleased with it! Its bright green dot is visible in broad daylight!

As for the pulsing beams, they have been proven to draw the eye more quickly, stand out better on a complex background, better intimidate a perp, and greatly extend battery life. There really is no downside...

The comments about lasers fast tracking trigger control and shooting skills are absolutely true!

The comments that lasers need not become crutches and replace conventional marksmanship are also true! That's like saying learning how to kick replaces knowing how to punch! Nonsense! Apply either as needed!

Laser aiming skills are quickly acquired, and after putting the LaserMax guide rod units through a couple a thousand rounds each, we normally pop in the OEM guide rods for range practice. It turns out, traditional marksmanship is where the fun's at!

Still, with proper trigger control, lasers are deadly accurate. Center mass hits at speed are easy, since the laser ostensibly projects the front sight onto the target. With a little care, you can routinely produce one ragged hole within the ten ring, per magazine, target after target. Yes, it really works!

Some additional thoughts about weapon mounted lasers...

Weapon-mounted lasers require practice and discretion for optimal use.

Walking around your home in a potential intruder situation, with laser blazing, is probably a bad idea...

Since a laser designator ostensibly projects your gun's front sight onto the target--in this case an intruder--you need not sight down the barrel! Better to keep your peripheral vision available for scanning your surroundings. Again, learn to see quickly!

A weapon mounted laser can allow you to hold zero on a perp using one hand. The other hand is free to open doors, loose the dog, call 911, or if you're very cool under pressure, finish your sandwich!

Extensive testing has shown that weapon-mounted lasers are proven assets on weapons platforms, when coupled with proper training and skilled application.

I've also seen the Crimson Trace video, Shots In The Dark, and it is an excellent tutorial, well worth a look-see!

--Ray

 

[theotherwaldo]

I like my LaserMax internal laser in my Glock 27. It's very reassuring in those close-in low-light confrontations. If I can see my sights then I use them. Otherwise, the laser comes into play.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Haven't read the whole thread, this may have been covered. I'd worry about the ability to pick up the dot on non paper targets that need shooting. I do think it'll help once the dot is acquired by the shooters eyes.

This is the reason I personally favor iron sights, over the laser, in bright light.

I do not want to have to spend that split second looking for the laser dot. It slows me down too much. In bright daylight I've found I'm faster with iron sights than with the laser.

IMO the laser is for low light or indoor use when the dot can be immediately seen in your peripheral vision and brought to COM.



BTW,
The laser practice was fun this evening.

 

[jaydubya]

Peter De Graves said: Use the sights. They work just as well, and are faster to pick up (at least for me).

I once was very good with iron sights, but now I am old and cannot see them without my glasses. I do not expect to be wearing my glasses in a SD/HD situation, so I need help. I get it from Crimson Trace grips on every handgun I have that CT makes them for. I will not buy a handgun for which CT does not make a grip. I still practice weekly with iron sights at the range (wearing glasses), but I am becoming less interested in doing that. If you can't see them when you need them, they are useless.

Good on you young people, but you will not always be young . . .

Cordially, Jack

 

[mgregg85]

I guess I would say why not to a laser on a pistol if it is unobtrusive.

It is important to not rely on the laser for all your training, of course you should practice with it off in case it is too bright to see the dot or the laser runs out of battery power.

I plan on picking up a crimson trace for my P3AT tommorrow. I think it is especially important on that little pistol because night sights are a rather intensive and surely expensive modification for the little thing.

 

[R&J]

Reply To jaydubya...

I still practice weekly with iron sights at the range (wearing glasses), but I am becoming less interested in doing that. If you can't see them when you need them, they are useless.

Good on you young people, but you will not always be young . . .

Cordially, Jack

Perhaps, fiber optic sights would restore some of the pleasure of target shooting for you?

I know that with healthy, trained eyes, iron sights are faster, but when one's vision fails a bit, the fiber optics can be faster for that individual.

At 53, I know something about this...

--Ray

 

[Fixxxer]

I thought about getting a laser for my SD weapon, but I've been practicing point shooting and I'm pretty comfortable with that technique now.