LASIK and Shooting -- My Experience

[Seismic Sam]

My eyes were too far gone for Lasik

I was 55, could afford to pay for my own Lasik no problem, and went in expecting to be taken care of in a week or two. They told me I had cataracts in both eyes, and to go away (you feeble, broken down old man ) So I got scheduled for cataract surgery for both eyes, and unfortunately I had really let myself go. I had coke bottle glasses with the left eye corrected far, and the right eye corrected for 12" to see my computer screen. I had an old pair of glasses that allowed me to at least see the sights on my gun with my right eye, but the target was a complete blur. About that time I had acquired a brand new 50 GI, which I immediately outfitted with Crimson Trace LG-301 lasergrips. I go to the range, reach for my range glasses, and I left them at home!! :banghead: So my right eye is totally useless, and I wind up shooting for the FIRST time in my life with my left eye at 25 yards using just the laser dot to aim with. The result was astounding:


Since then I had the surgery in both eyes, and for the first time in 48 years I don't need glasses. My right eye is corrected for distance and is 20/20 all the way to the horizon, and my left eye is 20/15 and I can see anything from about 34" to 15 feet. As such, iron sights are a little blurry for me, so I wear a cheap pair of glasses with 1 diopter of correction for shooting.

That aside, I think laser sights are the greatest thing for us older people since Viagra , and I would highly recommend them to people who may have some distance focus issues after they have had Lasik or cataract surgery.

 

[Grampa]

History Prof

The “sweet spot” I was referring to is merely the focal center of the lens. This may all be obvious, but bear with me. One of the measurements the person fitting your glasses takes is the distance between your pupils. When your glasses are made, they attempt to place the focal center of the lenses directly in front of your pupils. That focal center is not only the place where the lens is thinnest, but most accurate for the least light deflection. If you look at an object through your center glasses, then move your head around while fixing on that object, you may see the object sort of move around. The light beams entering the glasses are being deflected at a different angle and different distance to your pupils. That’s why those of us who wear glasses tend to turn our heads to look at things to either side, or up and down, to most accurately fix on the object’s location and proper focus. It takes some getting used to having no glasses, and having peripheral vision restored, as Wiley stated.

Now, this may be a minor, unnoticed problem for daily vision, but it exacerbates parallax problems with rifle optics, especially scopes. You have to take extra care to make sure your are looking through the focal center of your glasses and the center of your scope to minimize parallax error. Try it. Look through a scope at an object while wearing glasses and see if changing the distance to the lens and the tilt of your head changes the location of the crosshairs on the object. Also try changing the location of your eye in relation to looking straight down the scope tube. It is deceptive, but unless you are consistent in the hold, looking straight through the focal center of your glasses aligned to the center of the scope, your groups will never be nice and tight. It is especially difficult if you have a low comb on the stock and are trying to be good about cheek weld.

The same deflection error occurs with iron sights, both on rifles and pistols, but is less pronounced. I always corrected for it by being conscientious to look through the focal center of my glasses.

Now, all of the above is only my opinion and observation. I’m not an expert, just a shooter. I suggest you make your own observations. Someone that knows optics may want to drop in and correct my deflected errors.

Oh, and I want to reiterate what has been mentioned by a few people here. I seriously considered if I wanted to risk my eyesight for the rest of my life by undergoing an elective surgery. The clinic showed us a video explaining all the potential things that could go wrong, and before the operation I had to read and sign off on a CYA form that comprehensively went over the potential issues and problems, one of which is the near-sightedness I am experiencing. I made the decision to do it, and am pleased overall, so far, with the results.

The clinic I went to seemed to have the best credentials I could find. Certainly not the cheapest. The original evaluation was free, and during that evaluation, all of the testing and mapping of the eyes was done. One fee covered the entire process, for one year. Any corrections or treatment for complications I may need over the next year would be covered. I did my homework, and am glad I did.

 

[Legionnaire]

Thanks for posting this. I've been considering LASIK, but have had some reservations. I wear contacts, and have my right eye optimized for distance. As a consequence, it gets tired quickly when focusing close in (no way to avoid presbyopia, I guess).

Anybody here gone the "optimize one eye for distance and the other for close up" route, either with contacts or surgery?

Oops. Didn't see Seismic Sam's post until after this.

 

[ARTiger]

Like myself (I have Astygmitism solely - no other vision problems) lots of folks with astygmitism have tried contacts unsuccessfully in the past and have considered lasik. I was almost there when I tried the new AccuVue Toric disposable contacts. Although you're supposed to take them off at night, I find I can wear them continuously for about a week, do one night's rest and cleaning, and repeat 3-4 weeks worth. To me it's the same effect as lasik without the surgery. I hardly know the contacts are even there and just a rub on the eyelids in the norning brings everything into focus.

I bought what they consider six months' worth of lenses 3 years ago and still have 2 pair left. I do not have any interest in Johnson & Johnson, etc., but in my opinion their AccuVue Toric lenses are an awesome product for astygmatics.

 

[The_Antibubba]

I had it done almost 4 years ago, and I have no regrets.

I had 20/25 in my left eye, and 20/500 in my right Since I'm left-handed, this made my shooting choices a foregone conclusion. Problem is, I'm right-eyed. Now, after the Wavepoint, I'm learning to shoot right and right, and my shooting has improved.

Some things to consider:

• Don't go cheap! $300 LASIK gets you a possible horror story. I spent $2500 for the one eye, and it was totally worth it. My doctors are at the forefront of their professions, the machine is stationary and seismicly grounded (most of the bargain jobs have their machine trucked from clinic to clinic), andthe price includes 10 years of followup care. I had to have it touched up once, and I got right in.
  
• It isn't perfect. I still have haloes around bright lights. To be fair, I have them around the untreated eye too-I just never noticed them until about a year after the second zap. My doctor says within 1 or 2 years they should be able to correct that, too.
  
• If your profession or hobby involves close-in, detailed work, you might not want to do it. I used to call my right eye "SplinterVision" because I could pull stuff to within a half inch of my eyeball to examine it (of course, at arms' length I wouldn't be able to identify it). I could actually see the flaws in diamonds! That's gone. But so are the sore spots on my nose and behind my ears, the constant need to wipe my lenses, etc. It has been a fair tradeoff.

What's funny is, even now, I'll occasionally reach toward my face and panic because my glasses aren't there, before I realize I don't need them and don't wear them anymore. It's like a phantom pain, but they were such an integral part of my life.

Just be informed and knowledgable-don't go in blind, so to speak.

 

[History Prof]

When your glasses are made, they attempt to place the focal center of the lenses directly in front of your pupils. That focal center is not only the place where the lens is thinnest, but most accurate for the least light deflection.

Ah, so that's what that is all about. I kinda figured, but didn't really pay much attention as to why they have you look into the binocular thing.

Now, this may be a minor, unnoticed problem for daily vision, but it exacerbates parallax problems with rifle optics, especially scopes.

So THAT's why my groups are so lousy on my scoped rifles! I've always sighted through the top left of my right lense!

The same deflection error occurs with iron sights, both on rifles and pistols, but is less pronounced.

And that explains why my groups are better with open sights. It also explains why I've always been a durn good shot with pistols (sighting through the "sweet spot").

I always thought my scopes were junk, and I could never figure out why, no matter how much I spent on a scope, I couldn't get decent grouping, especially on a rifle I was doing well with on open sights. Another argument for letting others take a turn with your firearms, I guess. Also goes to show you that a PhD doesn't always = common sense. Now that I think about it, this should all be common sense! Lenses are NOT consistent, are they.... Now I'll have to find a way to shift my hold so that I'm using the Sweet Spot with my long guns.

Grampa, thanks for your reply here.....

History Prof.

 

[Glock_10mm]

Hey ARTIGER,

I used to work for Vistakon in Jacksonville, FL (makers of Acuvue).

Be carful how long you wear each lens and which lens you buy.

The Torics come in daily disposable, 2 weeks by day (or 6 days / nights straight), or silicone hydrogel 30 day/night straight. Each one is manufactured specifically for the term they claim, which means they are rated to provide oxygen/water to your eye (cornea) for that period. After the rated period they begin to break down.

For instance if you are wearing the dailys for weeks at a time without changing them, on about the 3rd day, the contact is breaking down and not providing your eye with the oxygen it should. The water fused with the contact is depleted and the contact is no longer protecting your eye. It may not seem like anything is happening, but it is slowly causing damage. Cleaning them is good to provent infection, but it does not restore the properties you eyes need the contact to perform.

If you are into wearing them day/night, make sure you are wearing them for the rated time period and not longer, and that you are wearing ones rated to work day/night.

I know they cost $$$ but just think about what your really saving by paying the extra to change them when suggested.

I just thought I'd let you know as I saw some of the worst, including people who had depleted their contacts so much, that they fused to their eye! Not saying contacts are bad...they are better than the risk of lasik if your vision is decent, but just be responsible using them...stretching they lifetime of the contact is only shortening the lifetime of your eyes.

 

[NMshooter]

Best money I ever spent!

I am so glad I do not have to reach for my "eyes" every time I wake up, or worry about those heavy glasses falling off at a really bad moment.

Contacts were not a realistic option for me.

I definitely agree, find the best doctor in your area and pay the money, you will not be disappointed.

 

[Ricebrnr]

I too was VERY concerned about negative repercussions of Lasik. As many of you have stated, you only get the one set of eyes, right?

For those of you who are considering it, the advice of researching the Dr, paying for the quality care, etc are all worthy of following. To address more concrete fears though maybe I can shed some light from my research before I went through with it.

Seeing halos, stars etc around lights at night. There's a reason this problem is usally noted only at night. The current "flap & zap" requires a very sharp blade to cut a flap in your cornea. The size or diameter of this cut should be somewhat bigger than the largest diameter your pupils will dilate to. Since this cut does scar somewhat it will refract light somewhat differently than the rest of the cornea, this is what cause the haols. If they measure your pupil correctly during your work up and cut the flap correctly, the risk of halos and other light distortions at night should be minimal. If your pupils dilate too much OR your corneas are too thin for a "flap & zap" you would be better suited for a slightly different procedure, PRK I believe its called.

The PRK procedure uses the laser to resurface you cornea. It requires a longer healing time but since there is no cut, you should not experience as much light problems. In fact this procedure is better suited to those with more active lifestyles where eye injuries are a concern since the corneal flap created by the other procedure may though highly unlikely dislodge.

Many of the horror stories you will find on the net are fairly outdated or the results of people going to the cheaper Lasik mills around (using less advanced, less maintained equipment). One fear I had of the laser "gouging" my cornea if I inadvertently twitched during the procedure, was a very real possibility in Lasik's early days. This risk is minimized today since all current technology units have at minimum an auto shut off if your eye should move or even better will track your eye moevement and adjust for it in real time. Also the procedure can take a much shorter period of time these days (depending on the amount of correction of course).

At any rate, damage to your corneas may be reversed by a corneal transplant as a last resort. This would not be a viable solution to retinal damage due to the laser, which again in the early days may have been an issue. The laser is focused at the plane of the cornea. Any light that travels past this should not damage the retina. As a precaution, some doctors have done the procedure slightly off angle so that the laser does not shine directly back to the retina.

I think the majority of you will experience at worse "dry eye sundrome". This can be resolved by carry drops. Most of us who use contacts are used to it anyway. In more extreme cases, plugging the tear duct drains will help and new medications are available as well.

Now take my research for what you will, it's been just over a year since I had mine done. My eyesight was good enough that I could live without my glasses, so this was not a critical necessity for me. Now I see 20/15 and really am glad I did it.

Sorry for the long disjointed ramble. I hope this little bit of information helps prompt you to look into it some more if you are curious.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Yo, Gramps. You can't just get glasses for your mid-range vision to see your front sight?

I use progressive trifocals, and use the middle part to sight my weapon.

 

[Remander]

Thanks for all the info. I am signing onto this thread to keep informed.

I have near-sightedness in both eyes and astigmatism in one, and I just can't stand the Toric contact lense for the astigmatism.

I have a friend who just had the surgery, and he loves the results.

I read and write for a living (shooting is just a hobby), so I am very hesitant to undergo the laser unless I am darned sure I will get good results.

Please keep posting your experiences.

 

[ARTiger]

Glock 10mm: Thanks for the heads up. I've been wearing the two week variety for about 5 years. Usually I keep them in for about a week then switch to another pair. I let the "old" pair soak in solution for a week then wear them another week. When they get dry, usually they tear and I'm on to another pair.

Have to say they're a great product. I had trouble wearing contacts forever - just couldn't get used to the feel of them on my eyes. These I hardly ever notice they're on!

I didn't know about the 30 day version . . . will have to try those.

Regards,
Jim

 

[dfaugh]

Anybody here gone the "optimize one eye for distance and the other for close up" route, either with contacts or surgery?

Yes, I've had cataract surgery on both eyes. Left is corrected to about 20-50 or 20-40 (for reading and computer use) and the right one is 20-15. Unfortunately, I can't use iron sights worth a damn, because right eye won't focus close enough to see rear sight. So, I use scopes on all my rifles, which is OK, as I shoot better with a scope anyway. But its all worth it to not have to wear glasses/contacts for the first time since I was 8. My sister wears contacts, and has a similar setup-- one or distance, and one for close-up.

The only problem I have is if I read/use the 'puter for extended periods, my right eye (the distance one) gets fatigued, as it tries to focus up close. considering getting an eye patch to cover it when I read.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

I have no idea where I got this, but here goes:

This year, approximately 1.8 million people are expected to get it done — and lower prices also encourage more people to see the light. A couple of years ago, Lasik surgery could run up to $5,000. But now, it can be had for as little as $499 an eye, and the guy behind the laser may still be working his way through the owner's manual.

"The dark side of Lasik is that in some cases it has moved from a surgical procedure, which should always be carefully considered and researched, to an impulse buy," says Dr. Roy Rubinfeld, the ophthalmologist in Chevy Chase, Md., who operated on my eyes. For the most part, Lasik is a safe procedure, resulting in about 98 percent of patients with 20/40 vision or better. The procedure entails using a microsurgical instrument to create a corneal flap that's approximately a quarter of the cornea's depth. Then, a laser beam is used to gently reshape the cornea. When that's completed, the surgeon puts the flap back into place on the eye.

However, the remaining 2 percent have problems. Some get better with a follow-up procedure, but some don't, resulting in permanent vision impairment or loss.

How to Choose a Doctor
If you're considering Lasik, here's a three-step plan to help you become a satisfied customer.

Step 1
Realize that Lasik isn't for everybody. Rubinfeld says you're not a candidate for Lasik if:
You have extreme near- or farsightedness, or severe astigmatism. Doctors consider that your vision impairment is "extreme" if you can't see clearly even with glasses or contacts. The worse your vision is to start with, the lower the chances of successful surgery.
You're under 21. Your vision continues to change as your eyes mature. If you have Lasik at 18, you'll almost certainly need follow-up surgery in your early or mid-20s.
You're over 40 and just want to avoid wearing reading glasses. Middle-aged men generally need help reading small type. The good news: Two pairs of drugstore reading glasses will set you back only 10 bucks.
You have extremely thick corneas, severe glaucoma, or retinal problems. Your eye doctor should be able to tell you if you have these conditions, which would make Lasik a risky proposition.

Step 2
Choose your surgeon wisely. A personal referral is an ideal start. In the absence of that, try referring to the International Society of Refractive Surgery, run by the American Academy of Ophthalmology, or the American Academy of Ophthalmology Web sites. Your optometrist or ophthalmologist might also offer a referral, but be warned: He may have financial incentives to send you to a particular surgeon.
The hands-down worst way to find an eye surgeon is through advertising. With these deep discounters you may see advertised on the subway or newspaper, you never know if they're going to be in business a few months down the road. One example, Lasik Vision, a chain of 28 cut-rate Lasik centers in the United States and Canada, ran out of money this spring, leaving patients and employees stranded.

Step 3
Ask a lot of questions, including:
How long have you been doing Lasik? You want the answer in years, not hours.
How many surgeries have you performed? More than 1,000 is optimal.
What's your complication rate? You want to hear that less than 1 percent of his patients had complications from surgery, and that 5 percent or less required follow-up procedures.
What changes can I expect in my eyes? Most likely, you'll have blurry days, and your eyes may feel dry for three to six months and require artificial tears. You may see halos (the secular kind) or starbursts around objects when you drive at night, and this could last for months, or even years.
How old is your laser? Your doctor should've had his laser upgraded in the past year. Experts say that the newer, "flying spot" lasers improve results.
Who will be doing the surgery? The doctor who examined you and answered your questions about the procedure should be the one performing the surgery. (Often, that's not the case.) Finally, keep in mind that even the best surgeon can't guarantee a 20/20 outcome. The difference between the best and the rest is that the good surgeons can fix the problems that arise during their procedures. And they'll actually be in business long enough to do so.

New Procedures May Trump Lasik
Though many doctors consider Lasik an amazing medical breakthrough because of its high success rate and limited side effects, four new, and possibly even better procedures may be coming to a practitioner near you.
Depending on your vision, there may be better alternatives:
Wave-front-based laser surgery: Doctors will still cut a flap in the eye and use a laser to smooth the surface of your cornea to improve your vision. This new method will be so accurate that surgery is expected to give patients better-than-20/20 vision. FDA approval is a few years away, but researchers expect it to become the standard eye-correction procedure. Initial cost: Up to $5,000 per eye.
Phakic Intraocular Lenses (IOLs): These are permanent contact lenses that doctors attach to the eye either by cutting a flap in your eye and sliding the lens underneath, or by using tiny claws to hook the lens down and clamp it into place. Doctors believe they may be more effective for people with severe vision problems. FDA approval is expected by the end of 2002. Initial cost: Still to be determined, but the lenses will cost the doctor $650 to $1,000 each.
Conductive Keratoplasty (CK): For farsighted patients only. Doctors shoot radio waves into your eye to smooth your cornea and correct your vision, without cutting a flap in the eye. The whole procedure lasts a few seconds, and patients can read small print immediately after the treatment. FDA approval is expected by the end of 2001. Initial cost: Researchers suspect this will cost around the same as Lasik, which usually runs about $1,800 per eye.
High-powered Contact Lenses: Johnson & Johnson claims its new Acuvue 2 contact lenses can give you more accurate vision than standard lenses, because they're made of a lighter, more absorbent material that holds more fluid than traditional contacts. One editor who had 20/15 vision with standard contacts was tested with 20/10 vision with the new lenses. cost: Up to $28.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Oh, and for the flip side, you might want to check here:

http://www.lasikflap.com/forum/

BTW, I had a friend who had lasik, only he had each eye corrected for different distance. Messed him all up. He hates it.

Re my friend, somebody else said that it's important that the doctor know which eye is your dominant eye before you have the correction for different distances. Cause if the doc reverses the two, then your brain gets all confused trying to figure it out.

 

[ZipperZap]

61 and still AMAZED!

I'll keep this short.

I wore thick glasses from the time I was 8 until I was about 50.
Without my glasses I was pretty much blind. I won't bore you
with the horror stories about not being able to find them upon
waking up, coming out of the shower.

I had a terrible astigmatism problem. Some opthamologists warned
me against Lasik!

I believe my eyesight was 20/2400.

Had the procedure done here in San Diego and was asked to read
the eye chart after I sat up after the procedure. Not only could I
read every line BUT I read the copy right date on the bottom!

When we walked out of the operating room my wife was miffed
because I was fascinated with two nurses down the hall - but I
was looking at single hairs I could see accentuated by the lights
above them.

Since then my vision has been 20/15.

End of discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

There have been only five visual miracles in my life. Four were
the witnessed births of my kids ... and guess what the fifth was?

Yep!

... oh, and shooting? Nah, I'm still just an OK shot - never was an
excellent one, anyhow, BUT I can see the targets out past 200 yards
now!

 

[Grampa]

PinandRecessed

Yo, Gramps. You can't just get glasses for your mid-range vision to see your front sight?

Good question, and I'm going to try. I bought a set of 1.25 power reading glasses, and they allow me to see well at arm's length, and still see targets at a distance, however, blurred. I intend to try them for handgun shooting at 50'.

But, one of my first purchases to celebrate my new eyes was a set of ESS I.C.E. 2.4 shooting glasses. Got to be tacticool!

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

The reason I asked was because I wear trifocals. For handgun shooting the Rx in the middle of my lens is best. That's my midrange distance. It's also the distance for looking at my computer screen.

If I were you, I'd get permission from my doc to bring in a handgun (unloaded, of course), and have him measure the distance from my eye to the front sight of the gun.

Then have him prescribe some shooting glasses.

 

[Seismic Sam]

A few more comments

I totally agree with NOT getting anything done with your eyes until you have to, but in my case I had let things get so bad that I was already past that point when I went in for a Lasik exam.

DO NOT get the $300 Sunday paper ad Lasik! For that they just burn a "stock" prescription into your eyes, rather than doing the fully customized job, which is about $3,500 for both eyes. (Oddly enough, cataract surgery is the same price...)

If you want to check into it more, there was a clinical study done by the US Navy on correcting vision problems with sailors, and the numbers are pretty damn good. (I seem to remember that 95% of the patients were corrected to AT LEAST 20/20.)

As far as eye fatigue of the close vs. distant eye, I have never noticed anything at all. In addition, the "overlap" zone for me is incredibly deep (like 10 - 15 feet) so your steroscopic vision is excellent. As a matter of fact, I had let myself go so far that I had effectively become monocular (either computer or distance, with NO overlap), and after the surgery women's ahem, CURVY parts... looked a LOT better than I had remembered them looking before.

Also, at least with cataracts, the problem of driving at night abruptly vanishes because the cataract is no longer there to scatter the light throughout your eye and mess up the image.

If you live in Minnesota, my recommendation is to see Dr. Elizabeth A. Davis - her credentials are impressive, and she does a good job. Turns out another guy in my shooting club who had glasses since he was FOUR saw her like I did, and he's 20/20 or better just like me.

 

[TIMC]

Nice review of the lasik rocedure. Sorry about not being able to see iron sights well any more but you are 52 so you are pretty much just like most our age. I have never needed glasses but my ability to focus on up close objects has gone steadily down hill since I turned 40. Now at 46 I too have had to resort to reading glasses for up close items and still see good at distance. You sound pretty normal to me! You might try some 1.0 glasses for pistol shooting It works pretty well for me. I can see the iron sights fairly decnt and the target is not too blurry.

 

[BigV]

I started wearing glasses when I was 6 years old. I hated them! I tried contacts and had a tough time adjusting. The worst part about glasses is going outside when it’s cold or rainy. It seems I always wore a hat to keep the rain off my glasses. The worst part I think was hunting. The constant fogging up when walking in the field during those cold mornings was a nightmare! That all changed about 8 years ago (I was 40) when I had Lasik surgery. I had both eyes done at the same time to correct for nearsightedness and astigmatism in both eyes. Now I don’t ever wear a hat. As a matter of fact, when it’s drizzling outside I look up into the sky just to remind myself of how lucky I am. I can truly say that Lasik surgery changed my life! Would I do it again? In a heartbeat!!

 

[Bubbles]

I'm finally at the point in my life where I can afford the $4-5k to have Lasik done. My doc says I'm a great candidate for surgery as my vision hasn't gotten any worse in the last ten years. I just could never justify the expense as things like paying the mortgage, putting gas in the truck, and eating had priority.

So, for those of you who had it done, did your doctor know going in that you were a shooter? That you wanted to see iron sights after the surgery? That you were right/left eye dominant (for handgun sights)?

 

[K-Romulus]

waiting for IOL

I met a guy 11 years ago who was part of a trial in NC. Told me to throw out the contacts and get it done.

I understand IOL is pretty common in EU.

My problem is (1) waiting for a few more years' worth of case studies, and (2) cost . . . but reversible eye surgery will be worth it.

 

[Seismic Sam]

Double depth cornea implants

Just spoke to an old friend last night who is 57 like me, has cataracts, and is going in for the progressive implanted lenses, which apparently have TWO different areas of correction, so you can focus on two separate distances with the same eye. (The lens is apparently actually segmented, so you get two different images, and your brain sorts out which one you want, sort of like the Bindon aiming concept on Trijicon scopes.)

At any rate, that would probably be ideal for shooting, although I apparently wasn't a candidate for it, and quite frankly I'm not too sorry about it. To go from monofocal vision with Coke bottle lenses to unrestricted crystal clear vision down to 34" is such a huge improvement that having to wear a cheap pair of 1 diopter glasses to shoot is really insignificant.

And speaking of unrestricted vision, as a newbie I have to ask: WHO is Oleg Volk, and HOW did get get to know so many good looking women who like guns??? Is he good looking, rich, or what??

 

[Remander]

I pulled the trigger and scheduled my Lasik surgery with the best doc I could find in the area. Several friends have had good results with him.

Wish me luck. I'll report back in late January 2007.