Latest thoughts on handgun vs shotgun

[Quaamik]

I'd go with the revolver for a novice "non gun guy" as you described.

Reasons:

Ammo is cheaper ( = more practice for the same cost)
Less recoil ( = more likely to practice)
Can be shot at more ranges ( = more likely to practice)
Simpler manual of arms
Will be able to handel it and dial the phone
Recoil is less likely to intimidate the wife ( = more likely wife will practice)
Easier to keep near the bedside
Quicker / easier to verify loaded condition
Able to be brought with you to answer that knock on the door at 2 am
Easier to check through the house with

Related to the last: I'm not advocating houseclearing by a single, minimaly trained homeowner. But how often do you get woken in the middle of the night by a sound, or by the spouse saying "did you hear that"? Often we find ourselves checking out a sound that woke us, that doesn't seem (at the time) to likely be a break in. If you have to do that, the gun you brought with you is far more effective than the cannon resting in the bedroom closet.

A shotgun is NOT the best choice for a "non gun person". The recoil is excessive with buck or slug loads, most "training" will wind up being done with skeet loads by shooting at clay pigeons, many shotgun ranges restrict people to "single load" unless shooting doubles (therefore no training on racking in the next shot), and many lightly trained people find it awkward at best to negoitiate their house with a long gun. If there are reasons against the revolver (personal preference, licensing issues) then I'd recomend an M1 carbine or a mini 14 over the shotgun.

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

I posted a detailed response with my reasonings, but the server timed out and it got lost. Short version:

Shotgun with 00buck.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Good Work

Interesting discussion.

Pertinent in my own situation.

We are in the process of moving from a home where a long gun made perfect sense (60-foot clear shot from the master bedroom to the front door, mostly open plan) into a split-level home with cramped stairways (thankfully this is temporary) and tight corners.

In the new house, a long gun would, frankly, suck. So I've begun to practice "walking" the house with a pistol, just to become accustomed to the space.

In the old house, a carbine would have been fine. In the new house, bleh. So now I'm learning pistol moves for confined spaces.

Your friend should practice until he can do house drills in his sleep, since "in his sleep" is as likely as any other scenario.

Oh, and my current load for the .357 (at home) is .38 special, hard-cast lead. There is no more "generic" bullet. It's not like I'm hunting in the house, so full-load .357s are, to my mind, a little much. I should look into "reduced recoil" .357 loads, but I have to be able to afford enough of them to practice.

Again, well done on introducing another shooter to responsible gun ownership.

 

[MikePGS]

I would recommend an 18 or so inch 20 gauge shotgun. The recoil is extraordinarily mild, even with defensive loads. This will encourage someone to practice more, since it doesn't have the punishing recoil that a 12 gauge might have. Failing that, there have been many threads on here discussing the merits of a .223 caliber rifle. You should be able to get a Saiga for 300 or less, and can later modify it past the initial 10 round mags if you so desire (in compliance with federal law of course).

 

[Snapping Twig]

For an untrained civilian, I'd suggest a short 12ga. shotgun with buckshot.

My preference is a 1911 in .45acp due to my training.

I find the .357 too much and the .38spl. too little, but like so many other things, that's just my opinion.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm not reading the whole thread, but I'm sure someone already pointed out that a tactical shotgun or carbine is the same length or just a little bit longer than a pistol held at arms' length.

It also holds some other advantages. With the butt of the shotgun, you have a striking weapon. In a tight struggle, it's easier to hold onto, and you have a significant object to push with.

Bottom line, a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place.

 

[bluestarlizzard]

good job norten,

"Strangely, he liked the HK USP9 the most but understood that it wasn't the right choice for what he wants right now."

"...so he can use it recreationally as well."

i think you caught the little fishy, now reel him in!!!
and a new gunnie is found

 

[60thjeep]

Shotgun with a cyl or skeet choke.

I think I'd even do 4 or 6 shot. Is there any reason for 00 buck at under 10 yards?

 

[yenchisks]

when reading this post a memory flash came to me .I was living in sacrameto at the time,news of a oriental man accidently shooting his wife,there alarm went off during the night she went down stairs to shut it off, He did not notice her gone, went to get his gun and shot her as she came up the stairs. my point being in the middle of the night you think theres an intruder in your home you should use your voice first,I HAVE A GUN!! just fyi

 

[Norton]

i think you caught the little fishy, now reel him in!!!
and a new gunnie is found

This is how many of us got hooked, after all

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

i would go with a full size 357 like a 4 inch gp 100 ! the heavier gun will handle recail better ! measure the distance you need to shoot across in your home and see just what your talking about ! The shotgun is better suited to outside the pattern is too small to be of any help and the legth is a problem clearing the rooms !i would rather have a handgun and a flashlight in the other hand ! Remind him to check the rooms behind him before he proceeds to check the rest of the house !! or stay in a safe place and just defend the door until police arrive !! kevin

 

[garymc]

Five years from now he will have decided the 870 with 2 barrels, 357 revolver, and 9mm 15 shot pistol he has at home are lacking a certain zest. How could he have neglected a .45 1911? Just be sure to take him shooting clay pigeons now and then if he doesn't take up hunting so he can enjoy staying proficient with the shotgun.

 

[riverdog]

my point being in the middle of the night you think theres an intruder in your home you should use your voice first,I HAVE A GUN!!

How about just being sure of your target. Telling a real bad guy you have a gun is telling him where you are and warning him to shoot first.

. . .I think the handgun is a lot more fun to train with, therefore he's more likely to actually get out there and do it. . . .

On topic, my choice was a Rem 870. I've used an 870 for Skeet and Trap which is a blast if you haven't tried it. I feel quite confident of being able to use a shotgun effectively for HD.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Saiga 12. 16" barrel, 10 round magazine

Ummm............That'd be NFA. I don't think a first timer is gonna want that headache.

 

[Diggers]

SHOTGUN.

I know every one likes to argue the fine details of things. (I do too. )

However, all the "one in a million situations" and "What ifs" that every one loves to debate, aside. Really only one thing matters way above all else.

It ALL comes down to if you can hit your target.

THAT will be easier with a shotgun with out a doubt. Long guns are just easier to hit a target with. And yes the buckshot doesn't spread out much at HD ranges, but even the little it does spread helps some; having a hit radius of 2 or 3 inches wide is better than one only .357 inch wide.

This person is a guy who just isn't in to guns. He isn't going to drill in his house, or go to a combat shooting class, he will probably shoot the thing a few times then put it in his closet.

A long gun is the right choice.

 

[weisse52]

SHOTGUN

We sometimes have the thought that we are going to “grab our gun” and track down the intruder. For most people, and even for most people on this forum that is not the right answer. As has already been mentioned, your best bet is to assume a defensive position and call for assistance.

Unless you have the training and experience, you best serve your family by protecting them.

Yes, we sometimes have to go out to protect our loved ones in other parts of the house. But in most homes you still have a way to establish a field of fire to prevent someone in advancing to your family. Believe me, it is easier to wait in ambush than to attempt to clear your house.

I use a pistol for home defense. But that is my choice based upon my training and experience; I am going to purchase a “coach gun” for my wife, well ok, for her and me.

I read one response that suggested that ammo for a 357 / 38 was cheaper than a shotgun. For practice trap loads are very cheap. The light recoil makes it easy to get use to the gun.

The bottom line is in the stress of a home invasion you want to use the tool that gives you the greatest chance to come out ahead based upon your experience. In most cases for most people, that means a shotgun.

We can debate penetration, stopping power and tactics, but assuming a good defensive position and calling for assistance is your best chance to come out ahead in a deadly situation inside your home or business.

I know that we can setup lots of situations that would lean to one weapon or the other, but lets try to establish what would assist most people in most situations. For a novice with little training that means a shotgun.

 

[Bezoar]

A revolver or a semi auto pistol is the better choice for a "non gun person".

Shotguns, pump or semi auto, require alot more upkeep to keep them going. The manual doesnt tell you every little issue or trick you will need to know about to keep the shotgun running. For example ive never seen the manual for an 870 tell you that they like to jam alot when racking a follow up shot, or LOVE to jam when using mixed shell lengths in the same magazine load.
although a double barrel would be my first shotgun choice.

Handguns, wether revolver or semi auto are the better choice. Maintenaince is far far easier to do. Most handguns are fine with just the simple mantenaince and cleaning regimines found in the user manual.

Then the practice is far easier with a handgun because of ammo prices. Doesnt matter if the person finds it easier to work a shotgun then a pistol. If they balk at buying GOOD quality ammo that costs 1-3.50 a round, they just arent going to practice, let alone make sure the gun is really reliable functionally.

Except for a double barrel shotgun, the handgun is far easier to reload under stress. either drop magazine and replace a fresh one, or swing out cylinder and insert ammo via moon clip or speed loader. Still takes time to get down pat, but see how long it takes you to load a pump gun in the dark at 4 am when your still half asleep.
Still what they get is what they get.

 

[Cosmoline]

Shotgun, carbine or other long gun should be the choice whenever that option is open.

The long gun is orders of magnitude more effective and easier to use effectively than the handgun would be. With a few hours of basic training a person can control a 50 yard radius with a long gun and be hitting moving targets with a very high rate of success at 25 yards. To do that with a handgun takes a great deal more practice and training.

 

[riverdog]

. . . Shotguns, pump or semi auto, require alot more upkeep to keep them going. The manual doesn't tell you every little issue or trick you will need to know about to keep the shotgun running. For example ive never seen the manual for an 870 tell you that they like to jam alot when racking a follow up shot, or LOVE to jam when using mixed shell lengths in the same magazine load.. . .

Do you shoot an 870 much? I've never had one of my 870's jam. I have had a S&W revolver jam, it was not an easy fix and I didn't fix it, a real gunsmith fixed it. An 870 is easy compared to a revolver. Glocks have them both beat, but don't beat the 870 by much.

BTW, the trick is to not short stroke the gun; rack the 870 hard and it won't jam.

 

[Diggers]

You beat me to it Riverdog.

Also as far as cleaning goes yeah a revolver is easiest, however its not like a pump shotgun is going to start to jam because its a little dirty. I have heard lots of people talk about basically NEVER cleaning their pump gun and how it still works fine.

Loading? Whats hard about stuffing shells up into a shot gun? Maybe a bit slower but not hard to do. A loading plus with a shot gun is you can top off when ever you want keeping the gun able to fire as you do it.

 

[goon]

60thjeep - do some searches and also check out box o' truth.
Birdshot just doesn't penetrate far enough to reliably stop an attacker. Everything I have read indicates that it tends to make very nasty superficial wounds but that penetration is usually inadequate.
Even #4 buck could be considered "marginal" under the right circumstances. I still use it because I'd rather get killed due to my shot failing to stop than risk injuring my neighbors due to overpenetration.
But I do at least understand the risk I am taking. And I have 00 and slugs available as back up.

One place where full power birdshot is great is to simulate the recoil of your real defensive load at a cheaper price. It gives practice recovering and working the action about the same as you would with your defense load.

And to those who say that buckshot kicks too much, have you ever tried the tactical loadings? If not, just invest $4 in a box and try them out. The difference is amazing eventhough you keep most of the power from the load.

The pros and cons have been pretty well listed but here is my take on it:
If you really want the most foolproof gun available get an NEF 20 gauge.
They are cheap and youth versions are very compact.
They are either loaded or they are not.
They are either cocked and ready to fire or they are not.
There isn't any way to lose count and not reload when you should because you know you ALWAYS have to reload.
You can't shortstroke one because there is not stroke to shorten.
They are slower than a pump but not as slow as an uneducated person would think.
And the only thing more PC than a single barrel shotgun would be a tennis racket.

No, it wouldn't be my first choice but if I had to arm someone who didn't know anything about guns fast I think I would try something like that first.

And if you want more than one shot, you are dealing with a more complex gun. Complex things are more prone to have problems and will require more know-how to use them to their fullest potential.
Accept it or don't.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Think of it this way.
A. Handgun keeps a criminal off of your person.
B. Shotgun stops the criminal in your house.
C. Rifle keeps that criminal or band of criminal off your property. "new Orleans"

Get a German Shepherd "GSD" and don't get an AKC Registered breed they bred the natural aggressiveness out of them by making them look good.
Let the dog go in front of you to sniff out the intruder and nine times out of ten that will be enough.

 

[Regolith]

For example ive never seen the manual for an 870 tell you that they like to jam alot when racking a follow up shot, or LOVE to jam when using mixed shell lengths in the same magazine load.. . .

As others have said to me, sounds like your short stroking it. That's your fault, not the gun's.

I've never had a pump shotgun jam on me. Not once. But then, I'm not gentle about rackng the slide, either.

There is a malfunction on older 870's that can cause a bad jam if a shell pops out of a magazine with the bolt closed ad gets up behind the lifter, but I believe that's been fixed on the newer ones. It is also possible to get FTE's if the bore is extremely dirty; new 870's have to have their bores scrubbed to remove the gunk that Remington puts on them to protect the finish, which also happens to hold onto shotgun shells with a death grip if there's too much of it in the bore. Other than that, jamming a pump gun is fairly difficult, so long as you don't short stroke it.

 

[Bezoar]

i wasnt short stroking it at all guys, put 20 rounds of federal slug or buck through, and it would just jam like crazy. it was a 12 guage bought from kmart or wally world back in 96-98. I could clean it spotless, lube it up, and it would do that crap again in 20-25 rounds.
Eventually it got to the point that chambering a round, and then inserting one in the mag would just sieze the action up if you tried to cycle it. Sure it was ok accurate with slugs, but not worth the time as a single shot weapon.
Got rid of it and got a new made 20 gauge 870 express, that puppy is smooth and great, rifled barrel is better yet.
Still I do have to say a handgun would be the better option.

 

[riverdog]

Sounds like you got a lemon. The only 870 I bought new was the 12 ga Wingmaster 3" magnum I bought in 1981. The other three are 2 3/4" 12 ga guns that are older than my magnum and they're all smoother. The last one is really rough to look at ($150) but the inside looks polished, nice trigger too. I have a Glock that's easier to clean than any of the 870's, but I expect that if I didn't clean any of them they'd all continue to run just fine.