Law enforcement only ammo
- Thread starter radiotom
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That's always nice gun rag lore, good for selling another few copies off of the news stand.
The thing is, if it is a good, legitimate self defense shoot, it won't matter what you were using, even a howitzer. OTOH, if it's not a legitimate self defense shoot, then it won't matter even if it's a .22 short.
Following that logic of "super killer bullets", we should be afraid to use something like a .44 magnum, 10mm, or .357 sig (or .454 Casull....) for self defense, right?
(The Harold Fish case was not about the ammo, it was about his right to defend himself with deadly force and was probably a miscarriage of justice.)
The only documented case where handloads have come up was one where it was debated whether it was a suicide or murder. The defendant claimed his wife committed suicide but that there were no powder burns because it was supposedly a very weak handload. It wasn't even a self defense case.
Well that's okay in most places but not all. A few places don't think we deserve to protect ourselves as well as LEOs do. BTW, go back to the top of the thread where the topic is about LEO only ammo that may not be available to common civilians.
Unistat
Member
You will be interested to know that in Michigan we finally call the "safety inspection" for what it is, registration. We do it by mail now instead of at the station. A minor improvement, but these things are often incremental.
Also, I would never ask anyone in Ecorse for information about anything unless I was going to do the exact opposite. Of course, being from Wyandotte, I may be just a little too close to be objective.
To the OP: What everyone else has said is correct. Buy whatever ammo you want in Michigan as long as it's not AP pistol ammo. I won't go so far as to say find a new shop, they may have other redeeming qualities. Just find a new shop for ammo.
sakata8242
Member
Then this shop must not sell any overpriced 20rd/box defensive ammunition either, because it's the same stuff that's just packaged into 50 round boxes for LE sales. They would probably flip to learn that I have about 500 rounds of Federal HST stockpiled in the 50 round "LE only" boxes.
VINTAGE-SLOTCARS
member
LE only ammo
The Sheriff's dept. I used to work for bought ammo by the pallet, several pallets at a time. The ammo was marked "LEO only". I was told our service ammo was bought cheaper as the DOJ, paid partial cost if we used ammo that performed to their specs. I don't know if this is true but I can see where 5-6 pallets of 9mm and 45 would cost quite a bit.
The Sheriff's dept. I used to work for bought ammo by the pallet, several pallets at a time. The ammo was marked "LEO only". I was told our service ammo was bought cheaper as the DOJ, paid partial cost if we used ammo that performed to their specs. I don't know if this is true but I can see where 5-6 pallets of 9mm and 45 would cost quite a bit.
mljdeckard
Member
About the 'carry what the cops carry' idea, it would be just as easy for the prosecutor to say; "This guy was so eager to shoot someone, he wanted to be a cop so badly, he went out and bought cop bullets, to shoot out of his cop gun, to play out his cop fantasy. He decided to shoot someone before he ever met the victim."
A great many things MAY be used against you, but I think you are overthinking it if you try to out-think the prosecutor.
A great many things MAY be used against you, but I think you are overthinking it if you try to out-think the prosecutor.
savanahsdad
Member
you meen your gun shop said you cant have this !!!
there full of BS
there full of BSallaroundhunter
Member
blarby
Member
Winchester ranger, etc- all on sale all over the place here.
Oddly enough- the only place that does not carry it... Wal-Mart. Asked their gun counter about it. They said it was LE only, and that they couldnt get or sell it by law.
Lulz.
limpingbear
Member
notice the box says "law enforcement" NOT "law enforcement only"......
savanahsdad
Member
wal-mart !!! too funny , I was in are wally-world last week and field striped an AR DPMS in under 10sec the kid in back of the counter didn't think that could be done with there triger lock on it lol and you asked them for Ranger Ammo lol 
and you asked them for Ranger Ammo lol 
Blue Brick
Member
Not in AZ.
Not necessarily. In fact that's one reason I try to get the LE ammo, it's cheaper. They sell the "consumer" ammo in 20 round boxes at around $1 per round (45acp). If you find the LE ammo, it comes in 50 round boxes at closer to 60 cents per round. That very true for Gold Dots where you can get either 20 or 50 round boxes. Typically the Winchester and Federal LE ammo is comparably priced.
larryh1108
Member
I've come across Glock mags marked Law Enforcement only as well. They were at guns shows, etc. They are also legal from what I know. Don't believe all you hear at a gun shop, gun show, etc. What they don't know, they make up.
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I remember when +p+ ammunition came out for 38 Special. The ammunition manufacturers were concerned about liability should it be used in a gun incapable of handling it. By restricting it to law enforcement agencies, there was some assurance that the department or its armorer/rangemaster would ensure that the officers were educated on its use, the duty weapon capable of handling it and the off duty weapons also capable. By such restrictions, the manufacturer lessened its liability.
Fast forward to 1991 or so when a disgruntled client walked into 101 California Street, San Francisco and shot up a law office. Winchester Black Talon was the ammo of choice used by the suspect and as part of the out of court settlement, Winchester agreed not to sell Black Talon to civilians anymore. Other ammunition manufacturers took notice. Not that the plaintiffs had any real claim, but remember this was in the Klinton Era where the antis were advocating their junk legal theory that gun makers and ammo makers were liable for the criminal misuse of their products.
Fast forward to 1991 or so when a disgruntled client walked into 101 California Street, San Francisco and shot up a law office. Winchester Black Talon was the ammo of choice used by the suspect and as part of the out of court settlement, Winchester agreed not to sell Black Talon to civilians anymore. Other ammunition manufacturers took notice. Not that the plaintiffs had any real claim, but remember this was in the Klinton Era where the antis were advocating their junk legal theory that gun makers and ammo makers were liable for the criminal misuse of their products.
No, totally different. During the 90's, normal citizens were limited to 10 round magazines. Law enforcement of course were allowed "high capacity" magazines and those were marked "law enforcement only". It was illegal for normal citizens to possess those magazines although we were allowed to own ones made before the ban (they were not marked).
That ban ended some years ago (2004?) Some states (or cities) still have bans on hi cap magazines.
Ken
blarby
Member
So Gary, I have a question :
Do you know the year they started offering the black talon "lite" in ranger ammo ?
Was it like the day after that settlement, or ? ? ?
Do you know the year they started offering the black talon "lite" in ranger ammo ?
Was it like the day after that settlement, or ? ? ?
Jonah71
Member
I still have a box of old 9mm Black Talons. I was told they were completely legal to carry or own but they were no longer manufactured.
smalls
Member
That's because it is. There is no law banning any sort of "Law Enforcement" only ammo. Winchester discontinued the sale of them because of the stigma surrounding the "super deadly" ammo. It's no different than any other JHP you pick up off the shelf.
Like others have said, you can pick up LEO boxes of them almost anywhere, it's the same stuff you get in the 20 round boxes, except it comes in 50 round boxes, and is usually cheaper per round.
Like others have said, you can pick up LEO boxes of them almost anywhere, it's the same stuff you get in the 20 round boxes, except it comes in 50 round boxes, and is usually cheaper per round.
Wow, I'm in Michigan and am going to be in big trouble.
I've not only got some of that Winchester LE only ammo
but......but....wait for it....Winchester NATO military ammo.
Now I gota go dig a hole somewhere quick, get that stuff
out of the house before the State police, ATF and maybe
somebody from the United Nations show up!
Dave
I've not only got some of that Winchester LE only ammo
but......but....wait for it....Winchester NATO military ammo.
Now I gota go dig a hole somewhere quick, get that stuff
out of the house before the State police, ATF and maybe
somebody from the United Nations show up!
Dave
I used this to my advantage once. Sort of ashamed of this, by the way.
Local pawn shop buys up estates with firearms & ammo, sells it in the shop.
I go over and notice a PILE of Hot Shot SS109 ammo. Make the offhanded snide remark to the pawn broker "Jeez Dave, when did you start stocking armor piercing ammo??!"
Dave looks over at me and says "that's not armor piercing."
I said "toss me a magnet" - rounds stuck.
He looks HORRIFIED. "Oh god, I can't have that stuff in here."
"No worries, I'll take all of it off your hands. What'll you take?"
He REALLY wanted it out of there. I got out the door, all 1500 rounds he had, for 10 cents a round.
Local pawn shop buys up estates with firearms & ammo, sells it in the shop.
I go over and notice a PILE of Hot Shot SS109 ammo. Make the offhanded snide remark to the pawn broker "Jeez Dave, when did you start stocking armor piercing ammo??!"
Dave looks over at me and says "that's not armor piercing."
I said "toss me a magnet" - rounds stuck.
He looks HORRIFIED. "Oh god, I can't have that stuff in here."
"No worries, I'll take all of it off your hands. What'll you take?"
He REALLY wanted it out of there. I got out the door, all 1500 rounds he had, for 10 cents a round.
TurtlePhish
Member
Trent, that's evil! 
Bet it was a fun range day, though.
Bet it was a fun range day, though.
Turtlefish -
That happened about 4 years ago and I'm still sitting on that pile of SS109.
This doesn't compare to the time I went in to the big LGS that has everything and the new guy working the counter over lunch didn't know diddly squat. I saw a Leupold Mk.4 LR Tactical sitting in the display case. I'd been drooling over these for awhile.
This one didn't have a price tag on it so I asked the guy behind the counter "Hey, what you want for this?"
He replied back "oh I don't know much about these, I'm new. This one is used."
I said "Yeah, probably has the same problems all the others do. I'll give you a hundred and fifty for it."
Sold!
THAT was evil.
Then there was the time the old guy who just got his FFL over in Green Valley started up his shop. He had an old drum magazine sitting in the glass display case. I immediately recognize it as Norinco/Chinese AK47 drum.. but notice it has an extra "groove". It's one of those ultra-rare frigging 100 round drums. Not many of those made it over here before the import ban.
"How much you want for this thing?"
"Oooh I don't know."
"Kind of pointless, aren't they? I mean, what you going to do with 75 rounds you can't do with 30? Except burn up a barrel."
"Yeah, no kidding. I'll take $60 for it."
SOLD!
They were going for $300 on gunbroker.. I still have it. Now they're going for $600.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=305734994
That happened about 4 years ago and I'm still sitting on that pile of SS109.
This doesn't compare to the time I went in to the big LGS that has everything and the new guy working the counter over lunch didn't know diddly squat. I saw a Leupold Mk.4 LR Tactical sitting in the display case. I'd been drooling over these for awhile.
This one didn't have a price tag on it so I asked the guy behind the counter "Hey, what you want for this?"
He replied back "oh I don't know much about these, I'm new. This one is used."
I said "Yeah, probably has the same problems all the others do. I'll give you a hundred and fifty for it."
Sold!
THAT was evil.
Then there was the time the old guy who just got his FFL over in Green Valley started up his shop. He had an old drum magazine sitting in the glass display case. I immediately recognize it as Norinco/Chinese AK47 drum.. but notice it has an extra "groove". It's one of those ultra-rare frigging 100 round drums. Not many of those made it over here before the import ban.
"How much you want for this thing?"
"Oooh I don't know."
"Kind of pointless, aren't they? I mean, what you going to do with 75 rounds you can't do with 30? Except burn up a barrel."
"Yeah, no kidding. I'll take $60 for it."
SOLD!
They were going for $300 on gunbroker.. I still have it. Now they're going for $600.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=305734994
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