Lawmakers Consider Stamps on Bullets

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My guess is that this is simple ignorance more than anything else. I had a conversation with a guy at work the other day who was asking my advice for things he could do with his visiting parents from New Jersey. He's a smart guy with a masters from Princeton, but the conversation went something like this:

Me: You could take them to the range to experience the illicit joy of shooting hollowpoints.

Him: Yeah, but we don't have any cops we want killed.

Me: Hollowpoints aren't cop-killers. They suck against armor.

Him: Oh, I must be thinking of those teflon-coated bullets.

Me: Nah, those aren't any more effective. The teflon makes it easier on the gun barrel.

Him: Oh.

Me: If you wanted to penetrate armor, you'd just use a rifle.

Him: You shouldn't be talking so cavalierly about this sort of thing.

-------------------------------------

You can't hold it against him or others who support certain legislation based off ignorance. We know this is stupid legislation because we understand how guns work, whereas people who have no interest in guns have no motivation to learn the technical details; consequently, they'll accept an authoritative-sounding statement at face value. Those who have technical knowledge of a field can instantly spot legislation from ignorance; the more one understands the field, the less one can comprehend how someone can't know the things he knows, and the easier it becomes to assume that the legislation is malicious.

The real problem is endemic willingness to spout BS and universal aversion to confronting people when they spout it. Consequently, stupid gun legislation won't be defeated by arguing against it on the grounds of its effects; those who proposed or support the legislation will just take that as encouragement that their ideas are valid. Instead, attack the source of the legislation: It's stupid, it won't work, and the only organization who says the technology is feasible is the company that makes it.

Corrollary: When arguing gun control with people, don't argue against their ideas, because many will take it personally. Argue against what they've been told. Expose lies and common misconceptions without sounding like a conspiracy theorist. People hate having positions shoved down their throat, but given correct data will happily take the correct decision based on their own reasoning.
 
I don't know why it won't work? Illegal guns are not available, what makes you think illegal ammo would be available? :rolleyes:

:D
 
If this is like all the other anti-gun bills, it will have a provision exempting "peace" officers and other government officials because we serfs are not as worthy as them. That means when they get a homicide with unmarked casings on the ground, they must assume that the murderer is a cop or government official, right?
 
If this is like all the other anti-gun bills, it will have a provision exempting "peace" officers and other government officials because we serfs are not as worthy as them.

It isn't like that - as the thread indicates if you read it. So this will effect law enforcement and state government as well...

Although that does bring up a good point... is there any exemption for federal government written into the bill? If not then what happens to the FBI, military and various other federal LEOs working in California when the bill passes?
 
The technology for bullet and case serialization doesn’t even exist. They can’t create it with legislation, ammo manufacturers have to develop it, and they’ve already said it’s prohibitively expensive. They will simply lose the California market. No ammo sold in California. End of story.
 
Candiru,

I don't think you give these 'legislatures' enough credit - I think they know EXACTLY what they are doing - these clever ba$***** came up with a way (2 ways actually) to enact an anti-gun agenda, without banning guns directly.

They will have made it so expensive ammo-wise , and so expensive - & maybe technically impossible - gun-wise, to do handgun business in their state that no one will bother.

They KNOW that with no one to make or sell you legal ammunition, you can't/won't carry. End of story.


Lets see what they do about LE though, when no manufacturer or dealer will provide them with ammo, or charges $100 a box for it; or when they won't be able to purchase new semi-autos.

Thank God I am leaving that dumb-a$$ state - 1 year was enough.
 
A lot of you are confusing this bill with the "other" (ammo) bill -- as was the gun shop guy cited in the article.

According to these proposals, any semi-automatic not on California's Section 12131 roster —the list of weapons that do not possess the ability to create microstamps — will be defined as an "unsafe" handgun.
This bill is about GUNS. Somehow, they believe (or claim to believe) that the technology exists to have the gun stamp a unique identifier onto each casing as the gun fires.

Doesn't matter what the device is, it can be changed or defeated. Firing pin? Brownells catalog. Raised numbers in the chamer or on the face of the breech? Nothing a few seconds with a Dremel won't cure -- or a second barrel or slide. Change to the "spares" before doing your drive-by shooting, switch back while your wheel man is rounding the corner, and by the time you're back in the lot at Burger King you have a legal handgun (probably not legal to YOU, but legal as a handgun) stuck in your waistband, and the unmarked parts are nowhere to be seen. There is nothing about this that's going to catch any bad guys, but a lot to raise the aggravation quotient for law-abding citizens by several notches.
 
There must be a way to argue successfully that such restrictions on guns are unconstitutional. It must be the equivalent of fathers of the nation requiring minutemen to defend against the Brits with gold miniballs :mad:

Wouldn't it be grotesquely funny to hear about CA lawmakers mugged with cap-n-ball revolvers in L.A. in the 3rd millenium? The stopping power of a Remington or a Colt Navy at mugging range would be comparable, as well as the accuracy :evil:
 
Which raises a question? What kind of security do those bozos have around them? I should know (but I don't). :eek: I have seen them being chauffered in limos, usually with an entourage. Plainclothes security, CHP's or what?
 
So you get caught with unserialized ammo (and there's no serialized ammo) and you become a felon and therefore unable to own guns anymore. or... you get caught with a gun that does not mark the cases (and there's no guns that mark the cases) and become a felon and therefore unable to own guns anymore. So even if the laws is later repealed, those caught under the laws will be forever removed from the ranks of gun owners (even if they move). Seems like they're trying to get to the point that even if you are allowed to own the guns you already have, you can't ever take them out of your house. Hmmm.... almost sounds like they want to get rid of all the gun owners, huh?
Kj
 
Which raises a question? What kind of security do those bozos have around them? I should know (but I don't). I have seen them being chauffered in limos, usually with an entourage. Plainclothes security, CHP's or what?
Normally, only the top state officials have a security detail provided by the California Highway Patrol.

Back before Cruz Bustamonte was elected lieutenant governor, I ran into him at the Fresno-Yosemite International airport. He had no security detail with him.

Anti-gun state senator Perata (D-Alemeda) says he needs one of the few Alameda Sheriff-issued CCW permits because he receives death threats from gun nuts and he doesn't rate a state funded security detail. Strangely, I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for issuing a death threat to Perata.

Pilgrim
 
Imagine how much easier it would be, in the case of my bill microstamping, if there was just a number and you call it into a database and you know exactly who it is in five or 10 minutes...

I wonder how long it will that that self-inflicted genius to think up the positively brilliant idea of having a serial number tattooed on everyone's left forearm.
 
In case you might have forgotten, I don't offhand see how you could have, but without doubt some have, this is the same mentality that would have your Social Security Number emblazoned on the horizon, mine too.

Now then while, for purely selfish motives, I might not care much about you, I do care a whole lot about me, and then I seem to remember a wiser head than I observing that No Man Is An Island. It likely isn't California that sucks, as I remember, having once lived for a time in The Bay Area, it was a nice place, in a number of respects.

Unfortunately, The State Legislature does present something of a problem, as do some elected officals. Then, one tends to wonder as to exactly why the electorate sends such boobs to public office, but that's grist for another mill.
 
I recommend that Kali gun owners retreat to a defensible position, and then fight hard to hold the Socialists back. Retreat to NM or Nevada, where you are free and have much less taxes, but don't relax- become VERY politically active to prevent the Socialist advance.

Seriously, I am not joking! A policy of containment might work just like it did with the Soviets - California is bankrupting itself just like the Kremlin did.

If there were vociferous protests in NM and Nevada anytime some California-style law was proposed, you would even get volunteers from other states to come in and protest. Witness all the interstate Minutemen that showed up!

You could call it "Project Bunker Hill"... :D
 
Hmmm....now when they pass this legislation, since gun companies can be sued for crimes, let's allow the congresspersons be charges with the gun crimes that are not solved by these laws. It would be a big cure-all. Most crimes would be solved, one way or another, and Kali would have more income from the fines....yea, that's it. :banghead:
As my pappy-in-law used to say, "The older I get, the more I'm amazed at the ignorance that reigns in high places." :)
 
In regards to police exemption:

AB 352, the one that makes semi-autos stamp the casings, exempts cops.

My question about this one is: The guy at LA Guns (great store) said that any handguns currently certified can still be re-certified so long as they don't change. That means the Glock 17, as it exists now, can keep passing its safety tests forever, but if they make the frame green, it has to be introduced as a new gun, and then it will fail the mag disconnect law and the microstamp law should it pass. Is this true? (Either way, I'm getting my XD-40 in a month or so.)

SB 357, the one that mandates all handgun ammo is stamped at the factory, currently DOES NOT exempt cops. It only allows police officers to carry unserialized ammo if they are taking it from a person, taking it to a lab, or disposing of it. Out-of-state cops may carry unserialized ammo in the state so long as they are engaged in their duties.

In regards to destroying gun owners, currently, if they catch you with it in your home after 2016, it's a misdemeanor that doesn't place you in the prohibited class. (That is, of course, subject to change.)

My guess is that they will amend the bill to exempt cops when it goes to the Assembly Appropriations Cmte. If they don't then the non-exemption of cops is the poison pill designed to ensure Arnie will veto it. Then, in 2006, they paint him as an NRA shill. If a Democrat wins that election, we're totally screwed.

However, one encouraging trend is the fact that the red counties in CA are growing far faster than the blue ones. This doesn't help the assembly unless we can redistrict (and a judge just struck that from the October ballot :cuss: ) but it could help to keep the Governor's mansion Red.

If California goes red due to this growth, and if we get redistricting, it's entirely possible that we could see some reversals in the slide towards gun control. And since California Republicans aren't terribly into oppressing gays and creationism, I'd be okay with that.
 
My question about this one is: The guy at LA Guns (great store) said that any handguns currently certified can still be re-certified so long as they don't change. That means the Glock 17, as it exists now, can keep passing its safety tests forever, but if they make the frame green, it has to be introduced as a new gun, and then it will fail the mag disconnect law and the microstamp law should it pass. Is this true?
Substantially, yes. The DOJ can retest up to 5% of the guns on the roster every year, for any reason or no reason. So long as the annual fee is paid by the manufacturer, and the sample handgun does not fail the test when picked, it can stay on the roster.

'Green' isn't supposed to be a change enough to require treating a gun as 'new' if another representative of the same thing in, say, 'black' is already on the list -
12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements
of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the
same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs
from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following
features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference
in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions,
material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel,
the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the
firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way
alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the
magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of
the firing mechanism of the firearm.
At least, I think the color is just a finish, as bluing or chrome, and meets the requirements of (4). It seems DOJ is at least sometimes inclined to disagree.
 
Ya know, I read
12131.5. (a)
and other crap like it and ask myself "who in the hell do they think they are"?

maybe I have antiauthoritarian 'issues' :evil:
 
I don't think stamping with the firing pin would work. I believe the brass will just dent more-or-less around the edges of the numbers without forming around them. I think you'd need a lot of force and some kind of bucking bar inside the brass to actually stamp it.

Primers get dented by the firing pin very easily. How hard would it be to create a firing pin that has a specific pattern along the exterior of it? You could use a binary numbering system.
 
Yes, but with that kind of intricacy, how long before that pattern wears smooth? Then, the cops find this, and convict you of "modifying" your weapon so that it doesn't imprint, which after all is something only a drug-crazed criminal would do.
 
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