Leading.. A Few Questions

[Gary H]

I have recently shot my first lead bullets. I went with Leadhead Bullets (20 - 22BHN Antimony 7.11 % Tin 2.33%).

I noted a great deal of leading in both calibers.

I was shooting 45 ACP 200gr. RNBB at 899fps and 45 Colt 250gr RNFP gas checked at 760fps.

Both loads seemed to really lead up the first third of the barrel. The checked bullet was probably marginally better. It was a bear getting it clean and makes me question the use of lead bullets. I'm aware of the jacketed last round out. Does this make a big difference in the lead residue? What is going wrong, or at least how do you clean this stuff easily?

 

[444]

It sounds to me like you are using bullets that are not correctly sized for your bore. Or you were trying to push the bullets way to fast.

I have fired a tractor trailer load of cast lead bullets. No exageration. 99% of them have been commercially cast. I have fired them in numerous calibers including rifles, pistols, revolvers and shotgun slugs. I have only had one instance where I considered the bore to be significantly leaded; even after firing as many as 500 rounds without cleaning.

 

[Gary H]

The fast part is why I'm posting velocities. I haven't slugged any of my guns. I wouldn't know where to get the material, nor what to do. I'm sure that it must be somewhat akin to pushing dried bubblegun through the barrel with a wooden dowel.

 

[HSMITH]

Gary, you don't list powders but it sounds like you are using a fast powder at the upper end of the loading data for the speeds you are getting, this alone is a major contributor to leading. Add to that the fact that you are using bullets that are WAY WAY WAY too dang hard for the loads you are shooting and bingo we have a leading handgun or two on our hands.

A BIG part of getting lead bullets to shoot well and not lead is having the proper hardness to have them obturate and fill the bore but not be so soft as to get deformed badly. The bullets you listed as 20 BHN are MAGNUM loading type bullets, there is no reason to shoot a bullet even close to that hard unless pushing the capabilities of 45LC+P for Rugers, for 45ACP it is downright silly.

Leading in the first portion of the barrel is usually becuase the load is not right. The powder is too fast, the bullet is too hard, the bullet is too soft, or something similar. Lighten the load if it is a heavy load, shoot a slower powder in the same speed range, and try harder and softer bullets. Most times with commercial hardcast bullets and a quality firearm the problem is a fast powder combined with a bullet that is too dang hard.

Leading downbore is usually the load is too hot, the lube is not heavy enough, powder temps are too high and things of that nature. Back the load off a little and this will be gone in most cases. If shooting 2400, 110, Lil Gun and the like bullet hardness may play into the leading. Gas checks are beneficial also.

99.95% of cast bullets sold are too dang hard for the intended purpose of Joe Reloader.

 

[Gary H]

HSMITH:

What you say makes sense, because I sent a gas checked 325gr Leadhead downrange in 480 Ruger at 1316fps and had far less leading. That was using 296.

The load posted was with W-231. I planned on switching to Titegroup, but I believe that this powder is generally the same in burn rate.

Where do I find a bit softer bullets?

 

[WESHOOT2]

MIGHT TRY

www.pennbullets.com

 

[HSMITH]

Gary, for loads like you are building I have had great results from Meister Bullets. They are available here locally and are relatively cheap @appx $20per500 452 200grn SWC. They have a fantastic lube on them and I keep a couple boxes of them loaded and in the range bag to clean leading from experiemental bullets out of my guns. I cast some of my own bullets and there have been some dismal messes, the Meisters saved the day, at least the gun cleaning part.

 

[Gary H]

I've attempted to make a few key measurements:

MOD 25:

Bullet: .451

Cylinder Chamber: .458
Forcing Cone: .458
Barrel: .451


Is the difference between Cylinder Chamber diameter and bullet sufficient to cause a problem with leading and accuracy?

I measured my .38/.357's (not an issue in this last shoot.. lead not used) and found:

___________

West Coast 125 gr. FP copper plated: .358
Leadhead 158gr. LSWC: .358

S&W Mod 627:
Cylinder Chamber: .357
Forcing Cone: .3775

S&W Mod 66
Cylinder Chamber: .358
Forcing Cone: .368

S&W Mod 19:
Cylinder Chamber: .358
Forcing Cone: .3685

Ruger SP-101
Cylinder Chamber: .359
Forcing Cone: .3765

Leadhead 355 WFN: .475

Ruger SuperRedhawk (480 Ruger)
Cylinder Chamber: .4785
Forcing Cone..not measured

Ran out of steam measuring things, but it seems that the cylinder chamber for the Model 25 is greatly in excess of bullet diameter when compared to the other guns listed.

 

[308win]

I shoot National Bullet 200gr SWC in my 1991 and have had no leading problems. Loading on top of Unique to approx. 850-900. I am paying $25/500 +tax at a local dealer. Here is link National Bullet

 

[HSMITH]

Gary, as long as the throats are not under BORE size all should be OK, at least it should not be a contributing factor to leading. Forcing cone size is more or less immaterial.... If the bores in your guns are even close to nominal sizes you should be in good shape.

Is your 25 a 45 ACP or 45 Colt?

 

[Gary H]

45 Colt..

I was reading elsewhere that cylinder chambers of excessive size encourage gas cutting. I'm assuming that gas cutting involves lead melting. That is why I was paying attention to the difference between the cylinder chamber and the bullet diameter. The barrel slug was .451

 

[HSMITH]

Most 45 Colts have a .454 bore. .452 bullets in a .454" bore will be a miserable failure no matter what you do.

Big throats will help lead the forcing cone some and the face of the cylinder, but the bore is another story.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Guessin...
Bullets awfully hard.
Lube may not be of adequate quality.

Difficult to lead a bore if the bullets have adequate quality lube.
If the gun is within specs.

Sam

 

[Gary H]

C.R. Sam:

Does a cylinder chamber of .458 seem a bit on the large size for a barrel that is .451? That is what is up with my S&W Mod. 25 and I'm wondering if this needs attention .. ie.. sent back to S&W. I don't even know if they work on guns over 25 years old. It seems that it needs a new cylinder.

 

[C.R.Sam]

.458 does sound quite large...
Specially considering the cone is not larger.

I would try different bullets tho before getting expensive.

Nuther thought...did you measure ALL the chambers ?

Sho can't hurt to ask Smith if they have any interest in replacing the cylinder.....if they have one.


Sam

 

[Gary H]

I called S&W and talked to one of their old guys. He said that spec cylinder on that gun was .455 and that ran for a couple of years. It was later replaced with a cylinder chamber of .452. He said that .458 was the largest that he had heard of. I'm calling him back next week to see if they have extra cylinders and what the cost might be. Another thing to check out before I buy a handgun. An expensive lesson learned.

 

[Gary H]

Well, I'm out some money, but they did have a new cylinder with .452 cylinder chambers. Gene at S&W gave me a reduced price on both labor and materials. At least the gun won't be a door stop.

Ooops, now that I revealed Gene's name, I should state that I mis-typed and should have called Gene well experienced and not old.

 

[John Ross]

Gary, you have nailed your problem. .458" chamber throats and .452" bullets is a recipe for severe gas cutting and leading.

The S&W 25s of the past are notorious for having oversize throats, usually .456". Yours was one of the worst I've heard of. I carry my plug gages any time I might be buying a revolver. Saves later frustration.

Next time this happens, there are a couple things you can do before you spend a lot of money:

1. Try a PVC wad behind the bullet to improve gas seal. NECO makes them, and they're cheap.

2. Use the slowest powder that will give the desired velocity. In a .44, Unique loads at 950 FPS can lead like crazy, while WC680 loads going 1200 show no trace of it. Much slower pressure buildup = lots less gas cutting.

3. Find a caster who can provide bullets sized to the throats of YOUR gun. You should just be able to push the bullet through the tightest throat with moderate finger pressure.

JR