Leading in the .44 Special

[Murdock]

The thread on .44 cast bullets got me thinking about problems I've had with leading, but I didn't want to hijack that thread.

When I bought my S&W Model 24 (about 1988 as I recall) I used it for the first 1,500 rounds or so with 17.5 grains of 2400 under a commercially-cast 240-grain LSWC, sized .429. No gas checks. I experienced no leading. Even using 20 grains of 2400 with the same bullet in my M29-2 there was no leading.

About 6 years later I got into field pistol silhouette competition in another area of the country. Again using commercial bullets of the same design, sized .429, with the same powder and charge, from a different vendor. Leaded like crazy. I spent a good deal of time with a Lewis Lead Remover that I would rather have spent doing other things.

If I had been experiencing leading from the beginning, I would just accept it as the cost of shooting my .44 Special, but I know it doesn't have to be based upon my early, favorable experience.

Having no way to test the hardness of the bullets, I will assume they were all of comparative "hard cast" alloys, as they were meant for .44 magnum guns as well.

Reading suggests that the type and quality of the lubricant in the grooves is critical to prevent leading, probably more so than slight variations in hardness.

1. What do you guys (or girls ) think?
2. Are gas checks important? Do they prevent leading? Needed? Why/why not?
3. I dread shipping costs, especially as fuel costs are going up. If I have to I will cast my own using wheel weight lead, but don't want to get into that yet. (Too many varied shooting interests that compete for my time). Who makes the best cast bullet if I want to avoid leading? (i.e.; who should I order from to get the best bullet to offset the pain of shipping?)

 

[zxcvbob]

I have a revolver that leads badly with anybody's cast bullets, any load. Other than that it works great. I'm gonna try using grits or Cream of Wheat under the bullet. I've read that it not only prevents leading, it scours out the existing lead and fouling.

 

[mainmech48]

If you simply have to push a .44 Spl. that hard I'd try a gas check design first, especially since they are also available from commercial sources. The copper cup protects the base from being melted and vaporized by the heat of the propelling gases, which should eliminate much, if not all, of your leading.

It's reasonable to assume that "new" 2400 powder may be of a slightly different formulation than it was 20-odd years ago, too. My next suggestion would be to try lighter loads or other powders. The one you're using is seriously hot for a .44 Spl. anyway.

Without some objective standard, such as a Brinnell hardness number, as a reference "hard cast" becomes a pretty nebulous term. My best advice, since I don't try to push cast slugs anywhere nearly as hard as you do, would be to try to obtain small samples from several commercial sources and compare them in your gun and with your load. Many are willing to sell you samples of 100 or fewer if you ask.

Then it's a relatively inexpensive process to sort out what works and what doesn't. Buy from the most economically favorable fo those that do.

 

[Majic]

You really need to know the hardness and the lube to determine your leading problem. With a little work you can adjust the bullets you have to possibly allow the velocities you are trying to get. You can scrape all the lube out of the grease grooves. That hard lube is great for staying on the bullet during shipping but sucks for shooting. Next take the bullets and place them on a cookie sheet standing on their bases. Heat in an 250 degree oven until the bullets are warm to the touch then immediately dump them into a 5 gallon bucket of cold water. Select a softer commercial lube or make our own (there are many homemade ideas, mine is alox-beeswax-vaseline) and completely fill the grooves. I would try just a few bullets at a time using various commercial lubes or adjusting the homemade receipes until leading stops. You will know the lube is holding up when after firing a few bullets you will find lube on the muzzle of the barrel.
If you know an experienced bullet caster talk to him/her. There are a few things you can do with lead bullets that allows shooting them at velocities over 2000 fps with no leading.

BTW...You really should have gotten your cast bullets a few thou bigger than .429". Cast bullets should be bigger than the bore. A .431" bullet would probably be ideal but most folks use .430".

 

[Virginian]

Wax gas checks. I have gotten so I load the last ten bullets out of every 50 cast bullet reloads with them, and if there is any leading it blows it out. I think "commercial" cast bullets have gotten softer in the last 30 years.

 

[Brasso]

.44 Special is very low pressure and needs a very soft lead bullet with a good soft lube. Using hardcast bullets in a Special isn't going to work very well unless the bullet diameter and your bore match up really good.

 

[zxcvbob]

.44 Special is very low pressure and needs a very soft lead bullet with a good soft lube

He's loading it halfway into .44 magnum territory.

 

[Harve Curry]

You could slug the barrel so you know exactly what it is. Look real close at the forcing cone, do some measuring there.
Not all bullet makers size the same, or alloy hardness or quality of lube . Lots of variables.
My limited experience with gas checks in 44 revolvers is they can cover up a problem and make it shoot accurately. Unless of course the velocity is way up to a point the lead melts from friction going down the barrel, which isn't your problem.

 

[zxcvbob]

Unless of course the velocity is way up to a point the lead melts from friction going down the barrel, which isn't your problem.

I shoot cast bullets (no gas checks) in my .30 Ruger Blackhawk at 1700+ fps without any leading. (I don't understand why that gun doesn't lead.)

 

[Brasso]

I had a Super Blackhawk years ago that I loaded and cast for. This is what got me into casting. At first I was using Laser Cast bullets. These things are hard. Really hard. And they have hard lube. They were leading badly. By the hardness numbers given by Laser Cast, I would have needed the pressure into the 40,000+ psi range to get them to slug up. So I started casting wheel weights and using RCBS lube. The leading stopped. I could shoot a whole box, even at max pressure, and no leading would occur. I think that commercial hard cast bullets are just too hard for most uses, especially if they don't fit the bore and forcing cone just right. Softer usually works better.

 

[GP100man]

agreed Brasso!!!

soft boolits are for low pressure & harder for top end loads !!

i wasted alot of good alloys before figurin this out , an old timer once told me if a boolit is leadin to bump up the powder & it`ll stop ,referin to 44mag&357mag .
well alot of the silver stream under the bridge so to speak , now i load lead as fast as jacketed .
as far as leadin goes to remove it & i`ve removed my share! ,take choreboy pot scrubber & wrap a layer around an old brush ,wet with your favorite solvent (i mixed up some eds red ) & it`ll cut it loose in just a jiffy, i promise!!!

GP100man

 

[Majic]

Unless of course the velocity is way up to a point the lead melts from friction going down the barrel, which isn't your problem.

That is a lube problem. You will only get the friction if you don't have lube separating the bullet from the bore. Think of it as the oil in your vehicles engine.

 

[rcmodel]

I doubt if it is a lube issue.

If the bullets are too hard, you are getting gas cutting & blow-by melting the sides of them and leading your barrel.

The other thing you might check is the size of the chamber throats, and also slug the barrel and measure it.

If the cylinder throats are smaller then the bore, and you are using very hard bullets, you are sure to be getting flame cutting on the too small bullets.

You want to use a bullet as close as possible to the cylinder throat diameter, regardless of bore size.

But if the throats are smaller then the bore, and the bullets are too hard to bump up to fit the bore, gas-cutting & severe leading is sure to result.

rcmodel

 

[44and45]

But if the throats are smaller then the bore, and the bullets are too hard to bump up to fit the bore, gas-cutting & severe leading is sure to result

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If throats are smaller than the bore rifling, its not perfect but hollow base bullets could bump up to fit the forcing cone tighter while entering the bore rifling with a tighter fit.

This is what the old heal bullet in .41 Colt use to do, an impracticable design to be sure...but it seemed to work for them.

However, you would have to have access to swage dies to hollow base a bullet like I do. Swage dies can also hollow point a bullet as well.

Jim

 

[chriske]

I would tend to agree with BRASSO, as I have similar experience with
my S&W mod 624.

I think most commercially cast bullets are too hard for regular .44 spl.
loads, unless one could really taylor-fit the bullets tp the specific gun.

I admit I prefer very light loads (5.4 gr W-231 & 240 gr. SWC) but experience the least leading with Hornady swaged bullets.

Even H&N bullets (excellent, German, synthetic coated lead bullets), which I use in "medium-to-pretty-heavy-loads" in other calibers without excessive leading, shoot very very dirty indeed in .44 spl