Leaked ATF document regarding definitions, marking requirements, etc.......

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dogtown tom

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Sounds like they want to serialize the upper and lower on ARs, make both of them a "gun".

Along with the grip modules for pistols like the Sig P320 and P365, since they house the fire control unit and would become a receiver under the new definition.
 
Sounds like they want to serialize the upper and lower on ARs, make both of them a "gun".

I don't know....

On page 27 (starting about mid-page), it clearly says:

"This second supplement would define 'frame or receiver' to include 'in the case of a firearm with more than one part that provides housing or a structure designed to hold or integrate one or more fire control or essential components... each such part, unless one or more specific part(s) of the weapon is or has previously been determined by the Director to be the frame or receiver.'" (emphasis mine).​

That sounds to me like they would, for instance, stick with their long-standing position that the lower receiver of an AR is the "frame" that needs to be serialized, and that the upper receiver would not be controlled.

However... like so much of this, it also sounds like that could be changed at the whim of the "Director" as well so... there's that. Also... remove that little paragraph (this is a draft after all), and it certainly DOES sound like they want to start controlling uppers as well.
 
So, since this is an ATF document and it does not need a ruling to become policy, it IS open to discuss right? I don’t want to waste my time reading something that’s just going to get closed as OT or speculation because it hasn’t become policy....yet.
 
<pats self on back>

I've been grousing about our tendency to call them "upper receivers" and "lower receivers" since I first heard it. This for the reason that the terminology opens the door to serialize those "upper receivers."

As I also kept saying, "Control the language, you control the issues."

And, to boot, I also kept kvetching about how "we" are so dumb about PR and successive impacts of misuse of words.

In the words of Sheldon Cooper, "You people have to listen to me."

I"m sure I'm not the only one who has pointed out these things, but forgive me if I take partial credit for the warnings.

But, "No, that can;t happen here." prevails and I've heard that since the debate over GCA 68.

We are our own worst enemy.

Terry "See, I'm not paranoid after alll," 230RN

</pats self on back>
 
If this so called document is even real, once explained to the masses, there will be a run on parts that will be worse than the run on ammo/components.

Bill
 
I wonder how something like that would affect a Ruger MK series pistol of which the “upper” is serialized but not the “lower”.
 
My thinking was Ruger treated it like a rifle in serializing the reciever and not any trigger group or stock. On a regular pistol that has a removable barrel/ slide/ bolt the frame is considered the reciever.
This could turn into a can of worms in the future for sure.
 
Raising the "eight hours in a fully equipped machine shop" precedent for what is "readily convertible" is worrisome. Originally, that precedent had to do with converting a gun to fully automatic. Now, it's being applied to going from a "non-gun" to a "gun." If this concept makes it into the ATF Regulations, that would lay the groundwork for outlawing all AR-type weapons (indeed, practically all semiautomatics with removable magazines).
 
OK there will be a comment period. Previous history suggests it will be a shortened one (think bumpstock ban) (which MANY ppl poo-pooed, doesn't apply to me and other various FUDD talk)

Previously, a commenter submitted his / her comments and questions as an aggregate, and, subsequent bureau response was an all in one. Say, four points of contention/ clarification and a bureau staff member submitted the response with an a answer to all four points...

What would happen if the commenter submitted a comment. Then a few days later noticed something else and submitted a 2nd comment. By the current rules, precedents and procedures, would that require a totally separate second response?
 
I remember this from not to long ago.
I wonder if this is where the roots are from.


Federal rulings could redefine what constitutes a firearm


DALLAS, Texas — A design feature of the AR-15 rifle has raised a technical legal question that is derailing cases against people who are charged with illegally buying and selling firearms under federal law.

At issue is whether a key part of one of America’s most popular firearms meets the definition of a gun that prosecutors have long relied on to make charges.

For decades, the federal government has treated a mechanism called the lower receiver as the essential piece of the semiautomatic rifle and consider that single part to constitute a gun. Prosecutors regularly bring charges based on that specific part.

But some defense attorneys have recently argued that the part alone does not meet the definition in the law. A change in the legal interpretation could limit criminal prosecutions where possession of a gun is essential to the charge. Some say the rulings could undermine firearms regulations nationwide.
Full article here

https://nsjonline.com/article/2020/01/federal-rulings-could-redefine-what-constitutes-a-firearm/
 
First, some of y'all didn't read the entire document. (or jumped to conclusions waaaay to early)
Second, I know, we all know, the Second Amendment "includes "shall not be infringed" but its clear from US Supreme Court rulings over the years "shall not" really means "sometimes can be infringed".
Third, I don't want this thread to turn into a "ATF vs the Second Amendment" because it isn't. ATF can only develop regulations as the enabling law allows. In this case thats the Gun Control Act of 1968. Feel free to bag on ATF for all sorts of things, but you need to understand ATF's involvement is because OUR elected representatives in D.C. made it so.
Lastly, I'm going to attempt to explain what I think the impact will be. (ATF did that in this document, but I'll bet 87% didn't get past the first paragraph)

• New Definition of Receiver
This has been needed for decades and ATF explains why.
The current definition of "frame or receiver" wasn't well written in 1968 and certainly needs updating. For whatever reason (actually explained in the document) ATF long ago determined what parts were considered a "frame or receiver"....for the AR that's the lower half. Thank your lucky stars it isn't the upper AND lower. if you don't know why the lower only is a good thing educate yourself before posting.

For the same reasons, a Glock frame, a 1911 frame, a Sig 320 FCG.

Further, the new definition seems to bring clarity to silencers.....as they don't currently have a frame or receiver.




• Update Marking Requirements
Currently, homemade, personally made, ghost guns or whatever you think they are called are not required to be marked by the maker. This becomes an issue once the firearm is complete and the maker decides to sell that gun to someone else. Any FFL that receives such a firearm is required by Federal law to record the makers name, address, model, serial#, type and caliber......tough to abide by ATF regs when its not a pre 1968 firearm and it has no markings. This proposed change explains how that maker or the receiving FFL can mark the gun with information required for his records. ATF also says it aids in firearm tracing. Since Congress says thats part of their mission, so be it. :(


• New Gunsmithing Definition
Updates the definition of "gunsmith" to include those who mark privately made firearms.


• Update Record Retention
Currently, FFL's must keep their 4473's for twenty years, after which time they can destroy them. If they go out of business before the twenty years, they are required to send them to ATF. A dealers bound books are never destroyed, but sent to ATF when the dealer goes out of business. This proposed change will have dealers keeping their 4473's forever.







• Other Technical Amendments

Little things, like requiring dealers to record multiple manufacturers, etc in their records. An example is a pistol made on a Poly80 frame by Jimmy Joe and has a Glock barrel/slide assembly.............apparently they want Poly80, Jimmy Joe and Glock listed as the manufacturer. Thats going to be a hot mess because it already is. Several years ago I had an ATF trace on a firearm that was sitting in my safe. The requesting agency used the serial# and model# off the Glock slide/barrel and NOT off the frame. The frame was in my safe.
Think about how that may cause you grief if you use parts of guns that you buy elsewhere for your ghost gun.


What a complete waste of taxpayer dollars. As if a crime victim knows or cares whether he was shot with a “ghost gun” or a factory made one.
Well, while I think gun traces work best on TV and the movies, the fact remains that most gun traces ARE NOT on firearms used to shoot someone. They are on firearms recovered by police officers at traffic stops for example. This is how many stolen guns are recovered.


Along with the grip modules for pistols like the Sig P320 and P365, since they house the fire control unit and would become a receiver under the new definition.
The FCG already IS a receiver under current ATF opinion.

That sounds to me like they would, for instance, stick with their long-standing position that the lower receiver of an AR is the "frame" that needs to be serialized, and that the upper receiver would not be controlled.
Yup


I wonder how something like that would affect a Ruger MK series pistol of which the “upper” is serialized but not the “lower”.
Likely no effect whatsoever.
 
The FCG already IS a receiver under current ATF opinion.

The FCU is currently classified as the receiver, but the new rule definition clearly states (pg. 23), " Frame or receiver. A part of a firearm that provides housing or a structure designed to hold or integrate one or more fire control components, even if pins or other attachments are required to connect those components to the housing or structure. " The grip modules are designed to hold the entire FCU - which is a superset of the fire control components. So it would essentially make the FCU + grip module = frame of a "standard" pistol.
 
Anyone have the Cliff note version??

When will it really be announced and open to comments. ??

Written comments must be postmarked and electronic comments must be submitted on or before [INSERT DATE 90DAYS AFTER DATE OF PUBLICATION
 
• New Gunsmithing Definition
Updates the definition of "gunsmith" to include those who mark privately made firearms.

This is an area I have a lot of interest in, and I have not yet had time to read the entirety of the document for myself. Under their proposal, what would I need if I wanted to make a reciever for personal use, or for that matter if I have a reciever that I already made for myself that is currently unmarked?
 
This is an area I have a lot of interest in, and I have not yet had time to read the entirety of the document for myself. Under their proposal, what would I need if I wanted to make a reciever for personal use, or for that matter if I have a reciever that I already made for myself that is currently unmarked?
I think the question is, under the new guidelines, are you required to mark it? If you are, you just became a gunsmith.
 
I will admit I didn’t read the document and this question is purely an act of laziness on my part. Would the marking requirement be retroactively applied to “ghost guns” that have already been assembled prior to the promulgation of a new rule? If so, does that mean one would need to pay a licensed gunsmith to do the marking? If further so, doesn’t that essentially mean unlicensed citizens can no longer make their own guns unless they start by purchasing a serialized receiver?
 
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