Lee Classic Turret Press Grief

[Mainsail]

Well, the brand new Pact electronic scale continues, after over 24 hours, to display fluctuating readings and error messages the useless manual doesn’t discuss, so I thought I would try a few dry runs with the press to set the seating depth etc until I can get them on the phone. I’m using only the case and the bullet, no powder or primers. The OAL for the .44 loading I will eventually be doing is 1.620”, and I want to set the seating die to make that.

The COMPLETE INSTRUCTIONS FOR LEE DELUXE PISTOL DIE SETS tells me to screw the expander die in until it touches the shell holder, then back it out one turn. After doing so I try the case out and with a full throw of the ram, the case is crushed. Should I only be pushing the ram up until I meet resistance, or start guessing at how much more to back it out?

The COMPLETE INSTRUCTIONS FOR LEE DELUXE PISTOL DIE SETS tells me to screw the bullet seating die in until it touches the shell holder and then back it out three full turns. Again, the full stroke of the ram crushes the case.

Frankly, I’m getting tired of throwing away my 44 cases. Why is it that I can tear down and rebuild jet engines, fly airplanes, and program a VCR, but this confounds me? What am I doing wrong?

 

[ChuckB]

Mainsail... call Lee on the phone. They are super at helping their customers. My classic turret is my first press, and it took me a little while to get everything in order- mostly in my head- but they helped me a lot. Now I just load, load, load!

Chuck

 

[Dean Williams]

Mainsail, I don't know how much you know about reloading dies, so;

When you run a case up into the expander die, you are not putting a bullet on the case, right?

Try this to get your expander adjusted right.
First of all, yes, always push the ram to the top.

Put the shell holder in the ram, put an empty case in the shell holder, (no bullet, no primer, no nothing, in it). Run the ram up into the turret hole, then take the die and screw it down over the case until you feel it touch, and adjust the lock ring on the die snug to the turret.

At this point, the case should be in good shape. Take a look at it and run it back up into the expanding die and check just to be sure.

To adjust the flare on the case neck, get a bullet you will be using and with it for a gauge, adjust the die down about 1/8 turn at a time checking the case each adjustment for flare. Use the bullet to check the neck, and when it will just start to go in, you're good. You can usually just barely see the flare, but you will be able to feel it with your fingers easy enough.

For the bullet seater die, make sure the seater knob on the top of the die is screwed almost all the way out. Now, see if you still have trouble with crushed cases. If it starts to get hard to push the ram toward the end of the stroke, stop and back out the die a little. Back it out until the case will go all the way in without being deformed.

Once you get that done, run a case up into the expander, then set a bullet in the case neck and run it up into the seater. Let it back down and check the bullet seating depth. Keep screwing the seater knob on the seating die in until the bullet is where you want it.

 

[steelhead]

Almost sounds like you are adjusting the dies off of the ram and not the ram and a shell holder.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Mainsail...PM to you so you may be able to clear your Pact scale.

 

[RandyP]

Have you checked your adjustments vs the Lee videos for single stage die setting?

http://leeprecision.com/html/HelpVideos/video.html

 

[Mainsail]

Mainsail... call Lee on the phone.

Well, I’m not sure but I highly doubt they’ll answer the phone on Saturday, Sunday, or weekdays after 5pm west coast time. I have to have a job to make the money I need to buy their products, yet the only time they’re open is when I’m at work. If I call, from work, they’ll probably want to ask me questions that I won’t be able to answer because the press will be at home. It’s pretty much the same beef I have with UPS leaving a note on my door; I’m at work!

Mainsail, I don't know how much you know about reloading dies, so;

I know very little. I understand what’s going on inside when I’m ramming the case up in there, but that’s about it. Are you saying the directions, as written, are not sufficient? I guess my problem is that I can follow an Air Force Tech Order and use it to tear down a seriously complicated turbofan jet engine and rebuild it, but these instructions befuddle me. Sigh.

When you run a case up into the expander die, you are not putting a bullet on the case, right?

Lol, no, I’m not quite that confused. ;-) I’ll try out the rest of your suggestions the next time I attempt it. Lots of good info there, but it only makes me wonder why Lee has such different directions. Thanks!

Almost sounds like you are adjusting the dies off of the ram and not the ram and a shell holder.

No, like I said, I have the 44 case in there so the shell holder is there too. I’m following the Lee instructions exactly as they’re written, which is why this is so frustrating. The directions should instruct as though the person reading them has never performed the operation before.

Have you checked your adjustments vs the Lee videos for single stage die setting?

No, I’m following the instructions exactly as they’re written on the sheet that came with the dies. There’s a video?

 

[Kentucky Cowboy]

Hate to say this on this thread with all the Lee guys but a Redding turrett will kick a Lees butt !!! I dont know if the press is the problem but Lee makes a lot of junk! thats why they are only guaranteed a short period of time and Redding Dillion and RCBS are guaranteed for life period. You gets what you pay for and my time is worth a lot so I buy very few Lee products,

 

[RandyP]

Gotta be honest with you, when it came time to set up the dies in either my single stage or now in my turrets, I just click on the videos and do as they show. I've not really read the printed instructions that came with the die sets beyond the loading data.

If a picture is worth a 1000 words, a concise video instruction like Lee provides for free is an encyclopedia.

 

[Koos Custodiet]

My first thought was, you're using 44 Special dies and 44 Mag cases...

 

[Right Wing Wacko]

Lee's instructions leave a lot to be desired.

I have pretty much the same setup as you, but I have yet to load anything other than rifle ammo, and even then only 10 rounds as that was all the brass I had. (32 Winchester Special).

That means I only had to deal with the Full Size Resizing Die and the Seating Die. Being as 32 Special is a "Custom 2 Die Set" it doesn't have a Crimping Die.

I'm in need of Brass for 9mm, 38spl, and 45acp... and I havn't been out shooting for a while so have not accumulated any. I've been resisting buying any but I may give in.

 

[D. Manley]

Well, the brand new Pact electronic scale continues, after over 24 hours, to display fluctuating readings and error messages the useless manual doesn’t discuss, so I thought I would try a few dry runs with the press to set the seating depth etc until I can get them on the phone. I’m using only the case and the bullet, no powder or primers. The OAL for the .44 loading I will eventually be doing is 1.620”, and I want to set the seating die to make that.

The COMPLETE INSTRUCTIONS FOR LEE DELUXE PISTOL DIE SETS tells me to screw the expander die in until it touches the shell holder, then back it out one turn. After doing so I try the case out and with a full throw of the ram, the case is crushed. Should I only be pushing the ram up until I meet resistance, or start guessing at how much more to back it out?

The COMPLETE INSTRUCTIONS FOR LEE DELUXE PISTOL DIE SETS tells me to screw the bullet seating die in until it touches the shell holder and then back it out three full turns. Again, the full stroke of the ram crushes the case.

Frankly, I’m getting tired of throwing away my 44 cases. Why is it that I can tear down and rebuild jet engines, fly airplanes, and program a VCR, but this confounds me? What am I doing wrong?

Might want to have a read through the article found, HERE. There's some good information including tips on setting up the dies in Part III of the article. You can also find every thing about the LCT you ever wanted to know and more, HERE.

 

[Dean Williams]

Kentucky Cowboy:

Hate to say this on this thread with all the Lee guys but a Redding turrett will kick a Lees butt !!! I dont know if the press is the problem but Lee makes a lot of junk! thats why they are only guaranteed a short period of time and Redding Dillion and RCBS are guaranteed for life period. You gets what you pay for and my time is worth a lot so I buy very few Lee products,

How does this help the OP with his questions?

Your opinion is worth exactly what was paid for it.

 

[Dean Williams]

Mainsail:

Are you saying the directions, as written, are not sufficient?

I might be saying that...
I think Lee could make things a little easier for the new reloader if they would assume that everything they sell is going to someone who has no experience.

Sometimes it's hard to divine an answer without having one's hands on the equipment. What I'm suggesting in my initial response to your questions isn't to buck Lee's instructions, but to maybe help bring your case smashing experiences to an end.

Here's another thing to check on the expander die. Take the top plug out of it. I mean the thing that has a large hole in it for pouring powder into the case. There is an expander plug inside the die, and it could be installed upside-down. The smaller end goes down. If you shake the die you should hear it going up and down.

There is a similar situation going on inside the seater die. Check it too. The hollow end of the seater plug goes down. It should be free floating, too.

I agree with many of the other suggestions here too. Email Lee in the morning. It usually takes them a day to reply. Watch the videos, etc.

 

[snuffy]

Hate to say this on this thread with all the Lee guys but a Redding turret will kick a Lees butt !!!

Sour grapes! I can't say what I really feel, Johnny will get upset!

Just how does a turret like the redding kick lee's butt? One that you have to manually turn from one station to another, and it's a "C" press, not as rigid as the lee. How long does it take to change from one turret to another, 10-15 minutes? Plus wrenches? My Lee turret can change from one caliber to another's turret in 10 SECONDS!

 

[ir3e971]

I suspect Koos Custodiet is spot on.

When you ordered 44 mag Lee Dies you were sent 44 Special dies that can also be used for 44 Magnum.

This also happened to me when I first started to load with this die set.

The instructions are written for the shorter 44 special cartridge, and you will need to adjust both the expander and bullet seating die out to compensate for the longer case.

Here is how I do it. Bear with me, I am not at my press, but will try to talk through the steps.

For the expander die:
1. Unscrew die mostly out of the press.
2. Put a cartridge in the shell holder and lower the press arm fully so ram is fully extended. (cartridge should now be in the die, but not really contacting anywhere)
3. Screw die down until you feel the inside of the die contact the top of the cartridge.
4. Lower ram slightly and turn die in just a bit. Raise ram fully. (you should feel expander contact cartridge now)
5. Lower ram and check amount of expansion.
6. Adjust expansion with small incremental turns of the die to the right until expansion is correct. (Bullet will just fit into mouth of cartridge)
7. If you go to far and flare to much: back the die out incrementally.
8. Once satisfied with amount of expansion, lock the die down at that point.

For the bullet seating die:
1. Unscrew die most of the way out of the press, also adjust bullet seater most of the way out.
2. With the die screwed mostly out of the press put a cartridge (no bullet yet) in the shell holder and lower the arm fully so ram is fully extended.
3. Screw die body down until you feel the inside of the die contact the cartridge mouth.
4. From this point, back the die body out one turn, or a little more.
5. Lock down the die nut.
6. Raise the press arm to lower the ram.
7. Put a bullet on the cartridge and raise ram again. The bullet should not be seated by this action because the seating plug is still backed mostly out.
8. Screw bullet seater down until it contacts the top of the bullet resting on the cartridge.
9. Lower ram slightly and screw in bullet seater a bit to begin establishing bullet seating depth.
10. Toggle press arm to extend ram again.
11. The bullet should now have begun seating in the cartridge. Each repetition of adjustment in should push the bullet further into the cartridge.
12. Continue to adjust until bullet is seated to desired depth. Leave seater adjusted at that point.

Hope this helps. I went through the same thing with Lee 44 special/44 mag and 38 special/357 magnum dies. My dad talked me through it via long distance.

Lee dies are great but their instructions don't cover adjusting for the longer 44 mag and 357 mag cartridges. If you are a tech order type guy, leaving these steps out probably seems bizarre. It did to me.

Hopefully you will no longer be crunching cases now.

Once you get the hang of it, this hobby is a lot of fun.

 

[RustyFN]

The advice you got from Dean W and ir3e971 will be the easiest way to adjust the dies. If you are using the factory crimp die then when you feel the seating die touch the case back it out 1/2 turn to eliminate any crimp.

Just how does a turret like the redding kick lee's butt? One that you have to manually turn from one station to another, and it's a "C" press, not as rigid as the lee. How long does it take to change from one turret to another, 10-15 minutes? Plus wrenches? My Lee turret can change from one caliber to another's turret in 10 SECONDS!

He probably doesn't know Snuffy, that's probably the only press he's ever used.
Rusty

 

[Asherdan]

The instructions are written for the shorter 44 special cartridge, and you will need to adjust both the expander and bullet seating die out to compensate for the longer case...Lee dies are great but their instructions don't cover adjusting for the longer 44 mag and 357 mag cartridges. If you are a tech order type guy, leaving these steps out probably seems bizarre. It did to me.

Best explanation of the issue I've seen posted anywhere. I did what Dean and ir3e971 outline to get around it after much farting around when I started with 'em.

And yes, it does seem bizarre!

 

[rondog]

I suppose the same problem would occur when using .38 special dies on .357 magnum cases? That makes a lot of sense, since .44special/.44magnum share the same dies, and .38special/.357magnum also use the same set of dies. In each instance, the cases are the same, but the magnums are longer. Glad I read this before I started loading .44 mags.

 

[Mainsail]

The instructions are written for the shorter 44 special cartridge, and you will need to adjust both the expander and bullet seating die out to compensate for the longer case.

Thanks everyone, I think this is the issue. I checked the Lee website and they don’t even sell a 44 mag specific set, so I don’t know why this didn’t occur to me. I’ll circle back and re-attack this when I get home tonight using the excellent instructions you’ve all provided.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[ir3e971]

Let us know how it comes out. If you have any questions we are all out here on the internets.

Rondog: Yes you will encounter the exact same issue with the 38 / 357 dies. Same procedures apply.

I crunched a bunch of both calibers because 44 and 38 are the calibers I learned on.

 

[ranger335v]

"The COMPLETE INSTRUCTIONS FOR LEE DELUXE PISTOL DIE SETS tells me to screw the bullet seating die in until it touches the shell holder and then back it out three full turns. Again, the full stroke of the ram crushes the case."

As an ex-blue suiter myself, I think one of the first things we will notice between a U.S.A.F. T.O. and a set of die instructions, from any maker, will be the difference in thickness and size. That accounts for some lack of detail from the die makers! So, forget the instructions from any of them, just set the dies up to work correctly. If you can fix a turbo-fan kerosene burner you can set up your dies too!

First, I suggest you make a new dummy round with each bullet you use and use it to set your seater up each time. Use no powder, no primer and keep each dummy in its die box.

For first time adjustment of your hand gun seater, run an empty but belled/flaired case fully up in the press and leave it up. Install the seater and screw the DIE BODY down until it contacts the case, then turn it back OUT a little, a quarter turn is plenty! Turn the SEATER PLUG way up and seat a bullet, screwing the PLUG down as needed until you get the OAL you want. Usually that's with the bullet cannalure just at the mouth of the case. Then back that SEATER PLUG back out, maybe 1/8th inch, enough to be well off the bullet you just seated. Now, turn the die BODY itself down a little at a time while working the press handle, keep it up until you get the degree of crimp you wish. Tighten the die lock ring. Finally, turn the seater plug back down until it's in firm contact with the bullet. You will be good to go, you can seat and crimp in one step.

Even if the die's lock ring is moved later you can install the dummy, still screw the die body down to make firm crimping contact with the case mouth and then screw the plug into firm contact with the bullet. Everything will be the same, or at least very nearly so! (Tighten the various die adjustment nuts by hand, they do NOT need to be wrenched down.)

If you wish to use a seperate crimp die, just leave the die body well off the case that quarter turn out and lock it there so the die's crimping ring makes no contact with the case mouth. Adjust your seperate crimper to make the degree of crimp you want after the bullets are all seated to the right OAL, it's no sweat.

Enjoy!

 

[Mainsail]

Here’s the Monday evening update:

Using the directions here and my gut instincts I managed to produce a 1.620” (depending on where on the caliper I center the round) no-powder no-primer 44 magnum. Thanks everyone! Seriously, I was ready to sell the whole lot. Somehow I find it hard to understand why Lee would make their product more confusing than it needs to be; seems like it would be bad for repeat business. So anyway, the 44 is ready to roll and tomorrow I’ll go through the motions with the .45ACP dies.

If the Pact POS scale was working I’d be ready to start turning out rounds. I called them on the phone from work today, the man I spoke to suggested I use the battery, after pulling it out of the battery compartment and leaving it attached to the wires. Bushmaster emailed me some instructions to reboot the scale (thanks again!) but they didn’t help, neither did the suggestion from the man at Pact. He said if it didn’t work that I would have to send it in. No, sorry, it’ll go back to Cabela’s first and I won’t buy another Pact scale ever again.

I have another question. I don’t want my final crimp to be too loose or too tight. The Barry’s bullets I’m using don’t have a cannalur. The crimp is tight enough that when I knock the bullet out there is a definite indentation around the circumference. It took a couple good whacks to knock it loose too. Does that sound about right?

 

[Dean Williams]

Good to hear things worked out with the dies, Mainsail.

It looks like you're loading for 44 mag, right? For this cartridge especially, (and really, all revolver rounds) you really need a bullet with a crimp groove, or cannelure. It's necessary to keep the bullet properly positioned in the case during recoil.

I looked at the Berry's site, and see all the cast bullets they have in .429 have a crimp groove. I also see that the plated bullets do not, and I don't know how they intend them to be crimped.

You can try your Factory Crimp Die to see if it will produce a heavy crimp in the plating of these, but I would call Berry's to see if that is recommended. It will do it to factory rifle bullets, but I haven't used one on handgun bullets. The crimp for .44 needs to be pretty heavy. If you don't get them heavy enough, you'll probably find out while shooting as the bullets will walk out of their cases and can lock up the revolver. Something you want to avoid, obviously.

I put a heavy (really rolled in) crimp in my 45 LC high pressure loads, and they take more than a "couple of good whacks" to get the bullets out with an inertia puller. Not necessarily a good gauge of crimp, though.

 

[RustyFN]

The FCD will do a heavy crimp in pistol rounds but it's not recommended for plated bullets being as the plating is so thin. I have loaded a lot of plated bullets in 9mm and only used enough crimp to get rid of the bell the powder/expander die put in. I never had any problems but read on some forums ( take that for what it's worth ) that if you crimp hard into a plated bullet you can have the back half of the plating come off and get stuck in the barrel.
Rusty