Lee Classic Turret Press...My First Reloads! ...Questions!

[holdencm9]

Hi everyone, let me be the first to wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving! (just about to turn midnight here)

That aside, I did my very first reloads today in .45 auto on the lee classic turret press. I just did 50, it was slow going since the auto-index broke (I heard it was cheap but wow) so tomorrow after turkey and football I have to fix that with the included replacement square.

Some other questions/comments/observations...

1. I messed one up, so I went to use the impact puller, thinking it would need like 10 good whacks, and the bullet popped out on the first stern hit. Now I am worried the bullets are too loose inside the case mouth? I used the factory crimp die, I can feel it engage slightly both in and out, but it was kind of weird to me how easily the bullet popped out with the impact puller. Should I be crimping more?

2. Related to the case tension on the bullet...I am worried my flare is too much or something, because the actual seating of the bullet is the easiest pull of the lever. I'd say the most force is required in the full-length resizer, the priming, and also pulling OUT of the powder-through expanding die takes some force. In comparison, the seating of the bullet required almost no effort.

3. 5.0 grains of Win 231 is not a whole lot...it seemed like the case could hole 3x as much! I had to go get an LED reading light so I could see inside the case, to verify that each one got charged.

4. The pro auto disk powder measure was fluctuating .1-.2 grains consistently, is this pretty typical? I have heard they take some "breaking in." I checked every single cartridge for the first 20 or so, then checked every 5th.

5. Although the first batch was painstakingly slow, I can definitely see how once I get it set up, and the auto-index, I could easily crank out 150-200 in an hour. For now I am happy with the 50 I did

Thanks in advance for any replies, and Happy thanksgiving!

 

[Centurian22]

Happy thanksgiving to you and yours as well! I look forward to reading the replies to this as I have a LCT on its way (ordered today) to start reloading .308, .32 S&W long, 9mm and eventually possibly 7.62x54r for the Mosin. Congrats on the new hobby! I have no exp with pistol reloading but one whack does sound loose to me we'll see what the experience people have to say. I pulled a .308 that didn't go off and it took the better part of 20-30 hard hits to give up the goods. That was some neck tension.

Best of luck.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Thanks for asking our advice. Happy thanksgiving to you, too.

Hi everyone, let me be the first to wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving! (just about to turn midnight here)

That aside, I did my very first reloads today in .45 auto on the lee classic turret press. I just did 50, it was slow going since the auto-index broke (I heard it was cheap but wow) so tomorrow after turkey and football I have to fix that with the included replacement square.

Some other questions/comments/observations...

1. I messed one up, so I went to use the impact puller, thinking it would need like 10 good whacks, and the bullet popped out on the first stern hit. Now I am worried the bullets are too loose inside the case mouth? I used the factory crimp die, I can feel it engage slightly both in and out, but it was kind of weird to me how easily the bullet popped out with the impact puller. Should I be crimping more?

2. Related to the case tension on the bullet...I am worried my flare is too much or something, because the actual seating of the bullet is the easiest pull of the lever. I'd say the most force is required in the full-length resizer, the priming, and also pulling OUT of the powder-through expanding die takes some force. In comparison, the seating of the bullet required almost no effort.

3. 5.0 grains of Win 231 is not a whole lot...it seemed like the case could hole 3x as much! I had to go get an LED reading light so I could see inside the case, to verify that each one got charged.

4. The pro auto disk powder measure was fluctuating .1-.2 grains consistently, is this pretty typical? I have heard they take some "breaking in." I checked every single cartridge for the first 20 or so, then checked every 5th.

5. Although the first batch was painstakingly slow, I can definitely see how once I get it set up, and the auto-index, I could easily crank out 150-200 in an hour. For now I am happy with the 50 I did

Thanks in advance for any replies, and Happy thanksgiving!

Urgent question first. You don't want to break your only spare.

The square ratchet is designed to break before any more expensive part breaks. Kind of like a fuse blowing before your wiring catches your house on fire.

If you operate your press too fast, overcomng the inertia of the rotating parts (turret, dies and powder measure) may be too much force for the ratchet to endure.

If you attempt to rotate the turret opposite to its normal rotation while the ratchet is engaged with the notches, it will bind. If you persist, it will break. There are two ways to disengage the ratchet from the notches. 1) Ensure the most recent movement of the ram is UP. Friction with the indexing rod will bring the square ratchet to the bottom of the indexing arm. 2) grab the indexing rod between thumb and forefinger, lift it up and bring it down 1/4". After that, you SHOULD be able to manually turn the turret in either direction.

When flaring, minimal is best. Over-flaring can undo the case-neck tension provided by the initial sizing.

If you are using oversized lead bullets in conjunction with the Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) the post-sizing ring may squeeze the case and bullet down (as designed, it ensures your cartridges will fit any SAAMI-specification chamber). But the problem arises when the (brass) case springs back a bit and the (lead) bullet does not. The grip is looser than it should be after that treatment.

Crimping more can help, but not so much that you do not get a firm and convincing "plunk" when you drop your loaded round into your barrel's chamber (disassembled from your gun, of course). The cartridge should drop into the chamber by gravity alone, make a "plunk" sound, be firm and solid against the shoulder inside the chamber and then drop out of the chamber by gravity alone (provided bullet lube is not gumming up the free exit). You DO NOT WANT an over-aggressive taper crimp (or, heaven forbid, a roll crimp) to negate the headspacing of your 45 ACP cartridges.

If you suspect your neck tension is inadequate, press the bullet nose against your loading bench. If you can shove the bullet deeper into the case with (heavy) hand pressure, then worry. Chambering a cartridge with a loose bullet can drive the bullet deeper into the case and that leads to 1) increased pressure or 2) feeding problems. The second is usually just inconvenient. The first can lead to serious injury.

The "breaking in" is usually referring to powder leakage. Variation in charge weight is due to inconsistent powder charge settling. Keeping depth of powder in the hopper maintained at the same level helps and throwing 10 or 12 powder charges to get things settled initially usually does the trick. Throw 10 charges, dump the powder back into the powder container or the hopper, then start checking your charge weights.

Lost Sheep

 

[holdencm9]

Thanks for the responses guys. Centurian, I am starting with .45 auto, but down the road would love to get into 9mm, .223 and .308!

Lost sheep, thanks for the advice on the auto index square. It was definitely my "fault" it broke, I took it out so that I could run my first several loads manually indexing, and when I tried to put it back in, I think the press was in the down-position and I just forced it a bit too much. So, my fault, but still surprised it stripped it out because I did not use MUCH force.

I am using Berry's plated bullets. I would say my flares are barely-if-at-all visible. The bullet just barely stays put on there, it isn't like going into the case on its own. But then when I pull the lever, it goes up so smooth and easy...for some reason I thought the bullet seating would be one of the tougher stages force-wise. I guess I could try reducing the flare a bit,

I did the plunk test frequently and each time it made a very satisfying plunk, went in and out smooth no problems. All things being equal, you want just enough crimp to feed smoothly and hold the bullet in place when it is cycling, right? I did not want to over-crimp because I read the berry's thin plate can be sensitive to that. I will definitely try the test of forcing the bullet nose against the bench. It is possible that I did not do the Lee FCD on that round, because I noticed my error first. Hopefully that was the case, and all the rest that DID go through the FCD will be fine.

As for the hopper....are you saying to try to keep it at the same level more-or-less, like 3/4 full where you are adding a bit more powder every so often, or are you just saying to not let it get less than 1/3 full for instance.

Alright, almost time to go get some turkey. Thanks again. Take it easy everyone and stay safe.

 

[quaid]

Try putting lube inside the ring where the shell plate rotates, and on the plate itself. It'll smooth the process. I can feel the ball detents engaging as it rotates now. Smooth is fast.

Its strange that the plastic square broke, something must be off.

I've worn them out/rounded them off in as soon as 200 rounds and had them last over 1,000. I'm currently trying two at a time. I have never snapped-broken one.

Is your index rod under or over rotating the shell plate? It can be adjusted if need be by turning the nut on top of the index rod.

 

[mdi]

I dropped the plastic part and lost it when I first got my Lee turret. I have since found it but still rotate the turret by hand and find this method best for me (I feel I have more "control") and I look in every case before bullet seating. I also do some batch loading/processing so indexing through a complete round isn't necessary. I believe the indexing ratchet/part is "sacrificial"; that it will break before any real damage is done to the press from "short stroking", slamming the lever, etc. My "hand indexing" turret has assembled a few thousand 45. ACP (without using a Lee FCD) that fed/shot well in my two 45 ACP pistols

 

[Lost Sheep]

I took it out so that I could run my first several loads manually indexing, and when I tried to put it back in, I think the press was in the down-position and I just forced it a bit too much.

Reinstalling the indexing rod is a completely different way to break the square ratchet than I was describing. If the rod is not lined up with the orientation of the ratchet or not centered, you can break it just as badly, though.

As you put the rod through the indexing arm, feel (with the end of the rod) to get is centered and aligned. Wiggle it a bit and twirl it until you are sure, and only then slide it on through.

I am using Berry's plated bullets. I would say my flares are barely-if-at-all visible. The bullet just barely stays put on there, it isn't like going into the case on its own. But then when I pull the lever, it goes up so smooth and easy...for some reason I thought the bullet seating would be one of the tougher stages force-wise. I guess I could try reducing the flare a bit,

It sounds like you have got it just right as is.

Standard procedure is to reduce the flare until it is impossible to get the bullet to stay put with your fingers (before seating), then increase flare until the bullet does stay atop the case mouth. "Less is better and just enough is just right."

I did the plunk test frequently and each time it made a very satisfying plunk, went in and out smooth no problems. All things being equal, you want just enough crimp to feed smoothly and hold the bullet in place when it is cycling, right? I did not want to over-crimp because I read the berry's thin plate can be sensitive to that. I will definitely try the test of forcing the bullet nose against the bench. It is possible that I did not do the Lee FCD on that round, because I noticed my error first. Hopefully that was the case, and all the rest that DID go through the FCD will be fine.

What you describe is exactly right.

Plating, if you cut through it with the case mouth, (reportedly) can peel off of the lead bullet and if it stays in the bore be disastrous when the next round is fired.

If your cartridges fit, feed and retain the bullet firmly without using the FCD, then you may not need to use it. It is easier to install/adjust dies when you seat and crimp with separate dies. but seating and crimping with the combination seat/crimp die works perfectly fine for most loaders.

As for the hopper....are you saying to try to keep it at the same level more-or-less, like 3/4 full where you are adding a bit more powder every so often, or are you just saying to not let it get less than 1/3 full for instance.

Right. Same level and at least 1/3 full. Test your powder and you may choose different guidelines. You may find some powder charges are more sensitive to the powder level than others. Ramshot is reported to be very stable in thrown weight, no matter what the level in the hopper is, so devise an experiment to test the theory and determine your own parameters, based on your tolerance for variations.

It is really important to keep an eye on the powder hopper to ensure you don't run it down to empty. It is no fun to disassemble 35 cartridges to make sure you got every one of the (unknown number) or uncharged cases you loaded before you noticed the hopper was empty.

Happy Thanksgiving

Lost Sheep

 

[KansasPaul]

You've already received some great input, I would add:

1 - be sure to carefully follow the directions included with your reloading dies for correct set-up.
2- when first starting out, go slow and check your work.
3 - don't "force" anything - check to see why the press is binding - it should not take a lot of energy to move the press arm.

I do not use a Lee auto-indexing press but the same cautions apply to the progressive press I use. Initial set-up is really important. Once you set a die, run it through the process to make sure that the function is correct. minor adjustments are often needed.

Remember to go slow and fun!

 

[jhvaughan2]

Re #4 I do find my auto disc charges sometimes fluctuate to +.1 but not more than that, and for some reason never -.1. I have also noticed that with powders like unique the charge will actually average up ~.1 as I progress. Now I tap the hopper as fill it to get the powder to settle in. I also run it through 5-10 charges and rotations before loading.

If you do not have it I also recommend the "pro" disc upgrade. Lee should just can the original auto disc hopper and only offer the pro. It has a silicone gasket, and much better mounting screws (and comes with the adjustable measure.)

 

[beatledog7]

Been said, but worth another go:

You cannot achieve sufficient neck tension by crimping. It's all about the size difference between the case neck/mouth and the bullet shank. If it's too loose before any crimping, it'll be as bad or worse once the crimp is applied.

My own procedure: Case prep does not include flaring. Case prep done, cases stored. They don't get primed and flared until after I decide exactly what bullet and powder they're gonna get. Flaring gets done only if I can't get a bullet to "balance" on the case mouth and then seat without shaving the bullet or crushing the case (you'll know right away if it's causing the latter) or if I can finger guide the bullet into the die body and achieve the same thing (watch your fingers!).

If I can't achieve that, I flare one case very slightly, try again, and repeat until the smallest possible flare is reached. Then I flare the rest of the batch. Given a small inside chamfer and due care, most jacketed bullets don't need flare at all. Most plated bullets need very little. Lead bullets need a little bit almost every time because they're .001 or .002 oversized.

A bonus is that with cartridges normally thought of as taper crimp rounds, you'll find that in many instances, no taper crimp is required to achieve a passing score on the plunk test because there's no flare to flatten out.

If flaring is not required, don't do it. Leave cases unflared until you know what bullet is going in them. That simple process change will save you tons of time and grief.

 

[James2]

+1 on what beatledog7 says.

Also, on crimping with a taper crimp die. There is usually no crimp ring, so all that is required is to iron out the flare. Trying to do more than that deforms the bullet and likely reduces the neck tension on the bullet. It is neck tension that holds the bullet, not crimp.

On cartridges like the 44 mag that use a roll crimp and the bullets have a crimp ring, crimping is different.

Yes, all powder measures will vary some. Worse with certain powders. The trick is to make sure you always follow the same routine and speed when operating the handle and knocker. I find it best to start at the dump position, go to the fill position and let the powder just settle in, no knocking, then cut the powder and now use the knocker to ascertain it all falls. A diff of 1 thou doesn't seem to matter much at all in performance. I guess if you are a perfectionist, you can weigh and trickle each load. Work on your technique. Most pistol powders throw very close for me in the Lyman 55.

 

[chhodge69]

1. Yes you have weak neck tension. No you cannot fix tha by crimping more. it may even make it worse
2. Yes you are over-flaring which is causing your nek tension problems. you should be just barely able to force a bullet to stick in the case mouth by hand if your flare is set correctly. In your case you may consider pulling he 50 you made already. Take one of your bullets an put it nose down on the bench. Press the nose into the bench with your thumbs with as much force as you can generate by hand only. Check you COAL before and after - if you moved it, pull them.
3. GOOD! that's an excellent habit to adopt. don't stop.
4. Yes that's normal.
5. DO NOT get in a hurry. You're better off making 50 good bullets per hour than making 149 good ones and 1 bad one.

 

[Blue68f100]

Berry's plated bullets normally run 0.0005"-0.001" over size like lead. So loose the FCD with these plated. Learn to reload without it and you will be better in the long run. Just use the std taper crimp.

 

[Flyin Brian]

OP - in regards to your comment about it taking a lot of force to pull the case back out of the powder charge/ neck flare die, i believe this helps ensure the full powder charge gets dumped in the case, and lessens the chance of the powder piling up or "bridging".

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Hondo 60]

Real short post

For 45 acp, measure the case mouth.
Your crimp should be about .469 - .470

One whack is sometimes enough with a bullet puller.

By the way, the crimp shouldn't be holding the bullet.
The entire neck area should have the tension needed to retain the bullet in place.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You already got some good answers so far so no need to say them over again. I will add a little that wasn't completely covered.

You are using 5.0gr W231 but you never did say what bullet weight you're loading. If you're loading a 230gr bullet I would suggest a charge of 5.5gr W231 that weight bullet with an OAL of between 1.255" and 1.265". That is my favorite .45 Auto load.

My Pro-Auto Disk is rarely off more than .1gr with any powder I load. Yours will settle in as you break it in.

Once you get the hang of using your turret press you will be able to safely produce between 180 to 200 rounds an hour. Sometimes less with short cases like the 45 Auto and 9mm than with a .38 Special or .357 Magnum just because the longer cases are easier to manipulate. When I say less I'm talking about 175/hr instead of 200/hr. lol

 

[holdencm9]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I was away from my computer a couple days visiting family and shopping!

So I am not sure what happened with the round I popped out with one whack. I tested about a dozen of my other reloads with the bench-push test, and none budged. So I think I am okay on that front.

I will try eliminating any flare and see if I can still balance the bullet/not strip the plating/crush the brass. I will also try a batch w/o the FCD and see if that serves me well.

Thanks again!

 

[Searcher4851]

Just to add a little to all the good advice you already got, as far as the little plastic ratchet square that indexes the turret, if you make sure to use full strokes of the handle, both up and down, the plastic square will last much longer. At least that's been my experience with thousands of rounds loaded on the first square. I did polish the rod that slides through it though to try to reduce wear on the plastic square because my rod seemd a bit rough from the factory. It is intended to be the weak link, so it breaks before anything else bends or breaks.

Bullet seating for me is the "easiest" stroke of the lever as well, but I reload mostly lead bullets and I suspect the bullet lube overrides the oversize of the bullet.

 

[clayg]

I highly recommend upgrading to the powder pro. No wasted powder to clean up. The standard powder dispenser is junk.

 

[jcwit]

YUP!^^^^^^^

 

[Reefinmike]

I highly recommend upgrading to the powder pro. No wasted powder to clean up. The standard powder dispenser is junk.

I had always had some spillage with the standard powder measure and hopper, but not enough to worry about. maybe 3-4 grains after loading up 800 with 231/hp38. once i started loading 223 I was using win748 and h335, both very small ball powders compared to 231/hp38. these powders would bind up the measure after 3 loads such that I had to push the disk back after each charge with a screwdriver- very frustrating. eventually my thinker kicked in and I looked at where the disk and hopper meet and noticed a fairly significant gap. I simply removed the hopper and took a razor blade to both ends that contact metal and took a thin even layer off. now it works like a charm with maybe 15 or 20 powder flakes spilled over a long reloading session.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I highly recommend upgrading to the powder pro. No wasted powder to clean up. The standard powder dispenser is junk.

If you're talking about the Pro Auto-Disk, the OP said in the first post that's what he has. I agree the standard Auto-Disk is junk compared to the Pro Auto-Disk...

 

[holdencm9]

If you're talking about the Pro Auto-Disk, the OP said in the first post that's what he has. I agree the standard Auto-Disk is junk compared to the Pro Auto-Disk...

Yes, I do have the Pro. It is nice...but I never had the regular, so no basis for comparison. The only things I dislike about it is the static cling I seem to get when I try to empty it out back into the powder containers.

Well since this thread got bumped I may as well update everyone...

I shot my reloads the other day, overall success! The first batch was 4.8gr of W231 with berry's 230gr plated round nose bullets, COAL 1.25" They were a bit too soft, I don't think the slide cycled with as much force as I would like, 1 jam, the nose of the bullet was in the chamber but the slide couldn't force it all the way in...they were also real dirty, I think perhaps attributed to the lower pressure not expanding the brass and sealing the chamber? There was residue all over the brass and on my hands.

The next batch was 5.1gr and I thought it felt like a perfect soft-shooting practice load. Also seemed to burn cleaner. None of the brass had the residue along the outside, and the slide seemed to cycle with more gusto. Both batches seemed equally accurate during my shooting, but I was not using a rest or anything.

The only other issue I had was on the first round of a mag, using the slide release didn't generate enough momentum to force the round all the way into the chamber (essentially same issue as aforementioned jam). This happened twice. I don't know if this was just a result of the gun getting dirty (from the first batch), or maybe I need to use the FCD a bit more...this method normally works just fine with factory ammo, and I thought my reloads were identical to the factory ammo I have been using (dimension-wise).

I've already got the cases cleaned and ready to go again! Can't wait to make another batch. Thanks again everyone for the words of advice.

 

[dickttx]

I haven't read through all the posts, but if you will wipe the inside of the powder measure with a new dryer sheet, then store it with the sheet inside you will lose the static problem.

 

[SSN Vet]

As you use the Auto-disk more and more, it will develope a dusty glaze of powder/carbon on the walls and all static issues will go away.

I load the exact same combination as you are using and like it a lot. W231 may be a little dirty, but there are worse options out there.

Not all brass manufacturers produce an identical product. In .45 acp, I've found that the case wall thickness varies such that ...

Federal is the thickest
Win is middle of the road
RP is the thinest of the "good" manufacturers
CCI & Aguilla are even thinner.

As noted, Berry's bullets are ~ .001" larger in diameter than normal, and you may experience the case bumping the post sizing ring of the LFCD as a result. This will be especially evident on the up stroke, as the belled case bumps the post sizing ring.... then you crimp at the top.... and on the way down you may or may not bump it again.

With Fed brass, I get a bump on withdrawal every time

With Win, maybe one in 5 have very light contact.

With RP, I get no bumps on withdrawal.

Some think this is a big deal... I do not....

I've measured bullet diameters b4 loading... then loaded with a medium crimp in the LFCD, using Fed brass (which gave a bump on the post sizing ring, upon withdrawal).... then pulled the bullets and re-measured the diameters. Never once have I found the bullet diameter to have changed... either with Berry's or Missouri Bullet's cast SWCs.

+/- .1 gr. seems to be widely considered about as tight a tolerance as any volumetric powder measure can hold.... and despite what the brand snobs say, the Lee Pro Auto-disk holds it about as well as any other brand. My brother has both Lee and Dillion presses and he thinks the Pro Auto-Disk actually holds a tighter tolerances than his Dillion powder drop. But in the big scheme of things, unless you're a top bench rest competitor (which weigh each charge anyways), I doubt you'll ever notice +/- .2 gr. every now and again . Missed charges, Double charges and gross over/under charges blow up guns. Unless you're already quite a bit over the published max charge, +.2 gr. should be well within the factor of safety built into the SAMMI chamber pressure limits.

Were you trying to force the auto index shaft back in when you broke the square hole plastic bushing? I used my press for 4 years and several thousand rounds before I finally wore out my first one. So I just popped in the spare and have been happily pulling the handle ever since. My rule of thumb for all precision mechanical equipment is in general, never force anything. If the mechanism resists your efforts, you're most likely not doing something right. Lot's of head scratching, reading and a few wiggles and jiggles should be the most effort needed.

Good luck with your reloading. It sounds like you're off to a very good start, have done your homework and and are being careful.