Lee Crimp Size Die

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M2HMGHB

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I just pulled some bullets from loaded ammo and measured them and found that they are .355-.356 for 38 special, .398-.399 for 40 smith wesson and .449-.450 for 45 acp. The starting diameter was .357 for 38 special .401 for 40 smith wesson and .452 for 45 acp, this is using plated or FMJ bullets. I then loaded a 40 case without a primer or powder and pulled the bullet without using the crimp size die and it measured .401
 
I also use the Lee Crimp Size Die, works as advertised for me, then again I haven't pulled any of the bullets from my rounds to check the diameter. Sounds like there may be something wrong with the die.

Later,

Dave
 
Well, the Lee Factory Crimp die is a full length carbide resizing die that also crimps, so undersizing of the bullet does not surprise me.
 
M2HMGHB,

Where are you taking your diameter measurements? The die shouldn't be sizing the portion of the bullet that is inside the case.

Later,

Dave
 
M2 has done his homework and found out something few people do. The FCD OVERSIZES most cases and swages the bullets down to the point that they are UNDERSIZE.

The FCD as used and recommended to be used by most is a bandaid approach to fundamental reloading problems. If you NEED the FCD to get your ammunition to chamber reliably something is terribly wrong in at least one of the previous three dies or with your bullets.

If the sizer ring of the FCD were a couple thou bigger it would work as a safety net and not ruin perfectly good reloads.

EDIT: That ^^^ sounds awfully negative and that is not my intention.

To get this FCD to work and not ruin your reloads you MUST sort your brass. Thicker types like the Winchester and S&B won't work well, Remington and Federal will give you a chance of having it work and not undersize your bullets. You must maintain seperation by headstamp and cull the thicker brands of brass. You must also keep the amount of crimp to a minimum, which is a good idea no matter what die you use with autoloader rounds.
 
Many thanks for the insight there HSMITH
my friend! I wasn't aware that the LEE FCD
was a "catch 22" to correct all types of
bullet seating mistakes! My question is,
does your comments apply to handgun
cartridges as well?

On another note, what adverse effects
would one encounter if the crimp were
started with the bullet seater/taper
crimp die ever so slightly; then finished
with the FCD?

Again, thanks for your knowledge, help,
and responses.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
Ala Dan, I'm glad you were able to gain something from my post.

My comments apply to handgun rounds only. I have tested the FCD so far in 9mm, 40, 45 ACP and 45 Colt. I have sold ALL of them, but in the interest of testing and such I have another FCD on the way to me as we speak. The price was good and I thought of something I didn't try last time, my own curiosity more than anything else.

The problem I have seen with the FCD is two sided. The first and far more regular problem I see is greenhorn or ill-advised reloaders promoting them as the end-all cure-all for problems in the relaoding process. For example, a new reloader is having problems with some rounds failing to chamber and is advised to get the FCD, it will size out and smooth out the problems and feeding will then be 100%. Well DUH!!!!!! Of course it will, but anyone that takes that approach is an IDIOT!!!! There is a reason for the problem and ignoring it will eventually get you a blown up gun! Hopefully that guy won't get hurt beyond his pride. A thinking man is going to figure out what the problem is, and correct it rather than bandaid over it and hope. The FCD is a rather recent innovation, makes me wonder how all those untold hundreds of millions of handloads made it through guns much below the e
 
Thanks for the input Mr. Smith, as I agree whole
heartedly! Normally speaking, I use RCBS dies
with a TC sizer; but recently trying to figure out
what when wrong with a batch of .45 caliber
handloads, I ordered a LEE FCD as well as a
regualr LEE taper crimp die.

Later, I discovered my initial problem lied within
the cases themselves; as I had not taper crimped
them quite enough to insure reliable feeding in my
SIG P220! The result was some FTF problems. But,
I have since corrected this problem; and all seems
like its "hunkey dorey"!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
Ala Dan, I'm glad you were able to gain something from my post.

My comments apply to handgun rounds only. I have tested the FCD so far in 9mm, 38/357, 40, 45 ACP and 45 Colt. I have sold ALL of them, but in the interest of testing and such I have another FCD on the way to me as we speak. The price was good and I thought of something I didn't try last time, my own curiosity more than anything else.

The problem I have seen with the FCD is two sided. The first and far more regular problem I see is greenhorn or ill-advised reloaders promoting them as the end-all cure-all for problems in the relaoding process. For example, a new reloader is having problems with some rounds failing to chamber and is advised to get the FCD, it will size out and smooth out the problems and feeding will then be 100%. Well DUH!!!!!! Of course it will, but anyone that takes that approach is an IDIOT!!!! There is a reason for the problem and ignoring it will eventually get you a blown up gun! Hopefully that guy won't get hurt beyond his pride. A thinking man is going to figure out what the problem is, and correct it rather than bandaid over it and hope. The FCD is a rather recent innovation, makes me wonder how all those untold hundreds of millions of handloads made it through guns much below the equal of what we have today.....

The second side I see to the FCD that is a potential problem is brass inconsistencies. Most all of us reload mixed brass, and in as large of quantities as we can afford. Sorting brass is a PITA, and frankly it is not going to happen for me. I shoot several thousand rounds per month, and keep several thousand more rounds loaded. 10K rounds on hand at any given time is normal for me, the scale is far too large to have to worry about headstamps. The sizer ring is carbide and fixed in size, but the crimp is adjustable, so far so good. The rub comes in with thick-ish brass, you can't adjust it down far enough to crimp well and not have it pass fully over the bullet length. So when you get the adequate crimp it has just swaged the bullet down a half thou to a full 2 thousandths in some brass!!!! It does not allow for me to load .358" bullets in my 38 and 357" in my 357, one size is all you are going to get but that is only the beginning. Some of the brass out there has thin walls and works OK, like Remington and Federal. Now we get to the scary part. You are loading up some 40's or 45's, using your FCD becuase it is the end-all (stay with me here) and you will have NO problems. You are using mixed brass, and for the sake of ease we will say that F brand has .009" walls and brand SB has .011" walls and that this just happens to be 40 S&W we are working with. The brand F brass is sized down to .399" ID and everything is good though a little more case tension would not hurt, a bullet is seated and the FCD sizer ring just barely touches the case, doing nothing but crimping the bullet. The brand SB comes along and is sized down to .3975" ID, we have a perfect size for a .400" bullet and we seat it. The brass is now .002" larger OD than the brand F, so the FCD sizes the round down .002" just like it was designed to do, and make everything nice right? Nope, now we have a bullet that is .398" in diameter if we pull it from the case, and the REALLY scary part is the bullet is only being held by the taper crimp and .0005" of case tension!!!!!! It is loaded into the magazine and the slide picks it up, the bullet nose hits the feed ramp, the bullet has little tension on it and crimp does squat to prevent setback (we all know that right?) so the bullet is set back into the case by .050" and BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We just blew up a perfectly good pistol, and probably blame it on a lack of case support since we used a 40 in this instance.

There is no free lunch. There is no cure-all to the reloading process. If there is a problem it MUST be addressed and not simply covered up.

For the astute loader with enough experience to know what is happening and what the consequences are the FCD is a GREAT idea, and it works famously. For the tyro or the less than attentive it spells disaster.

Over the last couple years and a half dozen or more forums I have been beat up on this very subject, only to have the detractors disappear when asked to explain how the above is not going to happen. The Lee FCD IS a good tool, but it must be used correctly or there will be penalties. I just don't want to see someone take advise in good faith without all the information and end up paying DEARLY for it. Too few people understand exactly what they are undertaking when reloading, and yet they are the first to advise that all the problems went away when they bought an FCD. I think we hear of VERY few of the total count of reloading accidents. Guys like Mike Irwin that are big enough men to stand up and say they screwed up are few and far between these days.

I have blabbed long enough. FWIW, that is my take on the situation. Use it or leave it.
 
A very good explanation there Mr. Smith. I have added
that insight to my handloading reference folder. Many
thanks for taking the time to enlighten us all; cuz I'm
sure there are many here (my self included) that simply
did not know!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
Glad that I read this today. For I have ordered a FCD in 45 acp. And will
try it with some caution. I do reload only one brand of brass for my 45.
(R-P) Thank you for this tid bit of info.
 
Hum....

I'm considering getting a couple of these dies for the final step in loading my ammo so I don't have to try to seat and crimp at the same time...

I need to really sit down and digest this to make sure that this is what I want to do.

I do, however, have to question whether .001 or .002 undersize is really all that big a deal, especially with lead bullets which have a much greater ability to upset into the rifling.

More than once I've shot .355 lead bullets out of my .38/.357 and haven't noticed any dramatic effects.

As for my stepping up and admitting that I screwed up, well, I had to. MTNBKR was there to witness the entire thing, and if I didn't fess up he would have used it against me for a long time... :neener:

Really, though, I wanted people to realize that if it could happen to me, with nearly 25 years of reloading experience behind me, it can happen to anyone.
 
I purchase the FCD so I could seperate the seating and crimping steps. I didn't like having to constantly reset the seat/crimp die when I used different bullets. In light of this information, looks like I'll be looking for a different die. Does anyone make a die just for crimping? I would like to keep the seating and crimping steps seperate.

Later,

Dave
 
Interesting. I had no idea it had any resizing function at all since I bought it strictly for crimping (heavy bullets, slow powders, etc). I'll have to load a couple dummies this weekend and measure the bullets after pulling them. If it's undersizing my bullets, I may be getting that Redding Profile Crimp die that WESHOOT2's always talking about.

In practice, I haven't noticed any problems though. I've loaded and shot at least 3k round using that die and none have given me a reason to doubt the die.

Chris
 
Well Chris, I'm kind'a in the same boat with
you; for I'm looking at 250 rounds of .45 ACP's
that I loaded using the Lee FCD; and I plan on
using them on Saturday 6 March.

But, I do appreciate Mr. Smith's good, solid info
and I will use the FCD with a bit of caution! Heck,
if all else fails, I will just return to using the RCBS
dies for each step; until completion.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
And Upon Further Research-

from the LEE PRECISION website:

"The FCD not only ensures that the bullet WILL NOT be pushed back into the case, but it can also duplicate the effect of seating the bullet out to nearly touch the rifling".

Part #2:

"The initial resistance to overcome the crimp is nearly the same as that which is required to seat a bullet seated out close to the rifling"

Part #3:

"This die has NO provision for seating the bullet"!

Lee Precision further states that they stand behind their
product's. Additional information is available from their
website.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
I never knew I was an idiot.

I guess that's to be expected, huh?

I've been reloading since 1971, started with a Lee Loader and a plastic hammer. I've loaded for the range from .32 ACP to .45-70.

Mr. Smith mentioned the problems with two different kinds of brass having different wall thicknesses. Remingtons in my experience (both .45 ACP and .38 Special) are thinner than WW or GI brass. If one uses the thin wall brass without paying attention, one has very little bullet "pull" or tension fit. We all know that low tension allows bullets to deep seat upon the loading function in an autoloader, don't we? We all know that low tension allows bullets to be pulled in recoil in a revolver, don't we?

THAT IS WHY I SEPARATE BY HEADSTAMP. To get uniform bullet tension prior to putting a crimp on the round. Frankly, anyone who is too lazy to sort out headstamps isn't all that serious about accuracy or safety. The case volumn difference between GI brass and some commercial brass is enough to turn a moderate load into a hot one.

If one uses a thickwall case, standard bullet and has a minimal chamber, it's possible the round will not chamber properly. The outside diameter of the loaded round will either scrape the walls of the chamber or just be too big.

The Lee FC die will fix that problem. Furthermore, the Lee die does the best crimp of any die I've ever used. I use them for 38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum. .45 ACP and 9x19.

As to the bullet being undersized: And?

I use the Lee FC die for all my target ammo. .45 ACP and .38 Special. I get better results on target using the FC die than I do without it. Even the practise hardball stuff I load for "combat" type shoots targets better with the FC die. People can argue all they want about measurements, but ultimately, the only measurements that count are pressure and group size.
 
Have you pulled a factory bullet and MIC-ED it ? And is there some accuracy problem with the cartridges you have loaded?
 
Next we will have someone claim that I hate Lee and that is why I say what I do........

I encourage the use of the Lee/EGW U-die for auto pistol rounds. Then even if a system proven to work flawlessly since Moses was loading would just happen to hiccup and a thin wall case gets in with the thick ones disaster can be avoided, that is IF the sizing is sufficient and the crimp die does not iron your bullet down a couple thou.

I agree that the FCD puts a VERY nice crimp on the bullet, and that there are advantages to seperating seat and crimp in some instances, particularly when loading lead bullets. The Redding Profile Crimp die does better though, and seperating seat and crimp will often show no gain in consistency when loading jacketed bullets no matter what crimp is used.

Make no mistake, when the bullet is swaged down case tension is lost. The brass will spring back far more than a bullet will, and setback will be the result.

If the loaded round from a 3 die set does not chamber something is WRONG, and to just swage it down and go on is something I am not willing to do. I choose to identify the cause and correct it. YMMV.
 
Guy's & Gal's-

With all due respect to Mr. HSMITH whom I consider
a friend, and taking all considerations into account; I have
decided to continue using LEE PRECISION'S factory crimp
die, although I will use it with a bit of caution.

And, possibly to help matters I will begin to sort cases by
headstamp as our friend Archie has indicated. Heck,
it only takes TIME; and TIME is something that I hopefully
have plenty of? I appreciate everyones commentary about
using the FCD; but I see it as a "checks and balances"
system!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
Thanks for the kind words Ala Dan.

You sir, deserve the 'astute reader' award. You read what I said, what everyone else said, and evaluated the information. You carefully considered the input, and made a decision using that information as it applies to you. After all, the information is worthless unless considered in the light that would apply to each person involved.

Some of the readers don't get it yet, some never will. No big deal, but it was worth the typing if it helps one person make a more educated decision or even if it makes them look at their own process and make sure it is as safe as is practical.
 
Seems like it...

would be easy to test

put the loaded round against a counter top and put some weight on it. If it'll hold 50# or so, I suspect bullet set-back will be a non-issue. If this is incorrect, please explain why. Inquiring minds want to know.

I am one of the idiots that use the FCD for my 45 acp. Had a few that I wanted to pull. With a hammer type puller, it takes a LOT of hammering to get the bullet out. If this is an example of poor neck tension, then adequate tension would be about the same as welding it into place.

With all due respect, I'm gonna do a little more checking before pitching my FCD's into the trash heap. YMMV
 
I've never used a "crimp" die on 45ACP. The seating die irons out the minimal bell on the mouth and creates a perfect edge for the round to headspace on. I've used RCBS and Lyman dies in this caliber and never needed that extra step, although I sort my brass, save REM and WIN and chuck FED and S&B in the brass barrel for scroungers. There is definitely a difference in wall thickness and taper of the different brands in my experience. I always use a single stage reloader. Maybe the guys who need "crimp" on a straight wall are using the HSLD progressive presses? I won't let one in my house until I have somebody mechanically inclined who I have faith in tell me they are OK. So far, nobody has. YMMV

I hope y'all get your problems sorted out and the dies do what they say they will. :)
 
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