Legal Times: Both sides worried about DC case

Status
Not open for further replies.

Remander

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2003
Messages
449
The mentions of the NRA's (non)role and their motivation are interesting.

Both Sides Fear Firing Blanks if D.C. Gun Case Reaches High Court
Tony Mauro
Legal Times
07-30-2007


The case of District of Columbia v. Heller is barely at the Supreme Court's starting gate, yet nearly everyone involved has a growing sense that this will be the Big One.

It is shaping up as the case that finally forces the Court to decide one of the most keenly debated issues in constitutional law: the full meaning of the right to keep and bear arms declared by the Second Amendment.

Washington, D.C., Mayor Adrian Fenty is appealing a March 9 ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit that struck down the city's handgun ban on Second Amendment grounds. The Court has given the city until Sept. 5 to file, and the other side -- residents who want the ban overturned -- say they too want high court review. If the Court accepts, the case could be argued early next year.

But even as the case heats up, factions on both sides seem to be getting cold feet. The concern is that even after nearly 70 years of high court silence, the time might not be right for it to speak to the Second Amendment question.

On the pro-gun-rights side those worries, along with long-simmering rivalries, have relegated the National Rifle Association to the sidelines in a case that could fulfill its most fervent dream: a declaration by the Court that the convoluted wording of the Second Amendment ensures an individual's right to bear arms, rather than a collective right of state militias. If the right-leaning Roberts Court embraces that view, regulating firearm possession and use would become harder, though not impossible.

Alan Gura, the Alexandria, Va., lawyer who masterminded the challenge to the D.C. handgun ban, says the NRA has joined him "ever so grudgingly" only in recent weeks, after years of trying to wreck the litigation and avoid a Second Amendment showdown. At earlier stages, the NRA sought to consolidate its own case, which challenged the D.C. law on a "kitchen sink" array of rationales, with Gura's. In a 2003 filing, Gura called the NRA case "sham litigation" aimed at muddying his Second Amendment claim.

Even after the D.C. Circuit ruled in March, says Gura, the NRA lobbied for legislation to repeal the D.C. handgun ban as a way to keep the case out of the Supreme Court. "The NRA was adamant about not wanting the Supreme Court to hear the case, but we went ahead anyway," says Gura, a name partner in the firm of Gura & Possessky. "It's not their case, and they are somewhat territorial."

FRIENDLY FIRE

Gura insists that if the high court grants review, he will argue the case himself and won't defer to NRA lawyers, such as Stephen Halbrook, who have Supreme Court experience. "My decisions in the case have been the correct decisions. That's why I am arguing and he's not."

NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam denies his group sought to sabotage Gura's case: "Our intent to file an amicus brief if the case progresses speaks for itself." He also noted that the NRA filed a brief supporting Gura with the circuit court.

Yet Charles Cooper of D.C.'s Cooper & Kirk acknowledges that when he reviewed the Heller case at an earlier stage for the NRA, "my concern was then, as it is now, whether our [individual rights] theory of the Second Amendment would command a majority of the Supreme Court." Even with recent changes in the composition of the Court, says Cooper, "that is still not as clear as I would like it to be, though I am much more calm." Nonetheless, Cooper says, if the high court declines to take up the D.C. case and lets the D.C. Circuit ruling stand, "that's not going to disappoint me."

Cooper's reluctance is based on legal strategy, but others say the NRA has less lofty reasons for not wanting the Supreme Court to decide what the Second Amendment really means. "The NRA would lose its loudest fund-raising drum if this question is answered," says Carl Bogus, a leading scholar who favors the militia rights view of the amendment.

The pro-gun-control side has also had misgivings about appealing to the Supreme Court. Other cities and states worry that if the Supreme Court upholds the circuit decision, their own efforts to regulate firearms will be in jeopardy. By not appealing, D.C. could have limited the damage to only its law.

"Obviously a lot of factors went into Mayor Fenty's decision to appeal. He wanted to do what he could to protect the city's laws," says Dennis Henigan of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a leading gun control strategist. "On the other hand, there have been some changes on the Supreme Court that could affect the outcome."

Addressing concerns about the nationwide impact of an adverse ruling, Washington, D.C. Attorney General Linda Singer says, "Our obligation is to the residents of the District of Columbia." She also says, "We have a substantial chance of success on the merits" at the Supreme Court.

Singer indicated the case would not be argued by an outside Supreme Court advocate, but rather a lawyer on her staff, though she did not say which one.

A natural candidate, says Henigan, would be Alan Morrison, the former head of the Public Citizen Litigation Group, who is leaving a Stanford Law School teaching position to join Singer's staff as a special counsel beginning Sept. 4. "He's a huge talent," says Henigan, who also says the city's solicitor general, Todd Kim, is "a terrific lawyer."

Morrison, who has argued 16 cases before the Supreme Court, confirms he has been working unofficially on several projects including the gun case recently.

DODGING THE BULLET

With the Roberts Court's increasingly sharp right turn last term, it might seem that the outcome of the case is predictable: a victory for the pro-gun forces and the individual rights view.

But things aren't that clear-cut, says Bogus, the Second Amendment scholar and a professor at Roger Williams University's law school. "It does not fall out clearly on the liberal-conservative divide," he says, noting that some conservative legal scholars such as Robert Bork oppose the individual rights view, while some liberals like Laurence Tribe back it.

The justices themselves have said remarkably little about the Second Amendment through the years, though at least two of them -- Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas -- have said enough to convince most analysts that they would support the pro-gun, individual rights view.

In a 1997 decision, Printz v. United States, Thomas said, almost wistfully, "Perhaps, at some future date, this Court will have the opportunity to determine whether Justice [Joseph] Story was correct when he wrote that the right to bear arms 'has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic.'"

For his part, Scalia, in a book 10 years ago, described "my interpretation of the Second Amendment as a guarantee that the federal government will not interfere with the individual's right to bear arms for self-defense."

During their confirmation hearings, new Justices Samuel Alito Jr. and John Roberts Jr. were asked about their Second Amendment views.

Senators grilled Alito about his 1996 dissent in United States v. Rybar, during his tenure as a judge on the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. In that decision, Alito said Congress had overstepped its powers under the commerce clause when it passed a ban on machine gun ownership.

But Alito said during his 2006 hearing that his was a "very modest position," adding that Congress could cure the problem by including in the law some statement or finding that asserted a connection between the ban and interstate commerce.

Roberts, when asked directly about his view of the Second Amendment, demurred on the grounds that the issue could come before him. But he did say in his September 2005 hearing that 1939's United States v. Miller had "side-stepped the issue" and left the meaning of the Second Amendment "a very open issue."

Miller marked the last time the Court dealt directly with the meaning of the Second Amendment. It upheld a restriction on sawed-off shotguns, asserting that the laws appeared to have little to do with "a well-regulated militia."

To Henigan of the Brady Center, Roberts' stated view of Miller was telling. "When he said that, it was a signal, to my ears" that Roberts would take the individual rights view. Most gun rights advocates also say Miller sidestepped the Second Amendment question, says Henigan, while "nine circuit courts have found that Miller did in fact decide the meaning of the Second Amendment" as a militia right.

Little is known about the other justices' Second Amendment views. As is often the case, Justice Anthony Kennedy might cast the deciding vote.

No matter what the outcome of the case, even the pro-gun-rights Gura believes it will be far from the last word the Supreme Court has on the subject of the Second Amendment.

"There's this incredible temptation, which I don't understand, to think that one Second Amendment case will resolve everything," says Gura. "It doesn't work that way." Even if the Court declares it protects an individual right, the scope of the right will have to be fleshed out, he says. "It will take an eternity to resolve."


http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1185527215310
 
No matter what the outcome of the case, even the pro-gun-rights Gura believes it will be far from the last word the Supreme Court has on the subject of the Second Amendment.

So true. This is a multibillion dollar industry, this thing of ours. The beat will go on gentlemen.
 
The one good thing about the Supreme Court is that they are in for life... In theory, they are beyond politics... They don't have to worry about being re-elected...

But like everything else in life, that is also a bad part too
 
------quote---------
the convoluted wording of the Second Amendment ensures an individual's right to bear arms
--------------------

Only a lawyer could call the wording of the Second Ammendment "convoluted."

It says something extremely obvious, with a clear common-sense meaning. The entire bill of rights is about limiting government power and enhancing individual liberties.

Only three ways to misunderstand the 2nd:

1) someone whose thinking has been twisted and torqued by legal education
2) someone who has already decided they want to ban guns, and is looking for a perverse interpretation to allow it
3) both of the above
 
Isn't it nice that all the the debate between our elected officials vying for our support means nothing when the real issues are decided and handed down by the in-for-life cabal of 9.

?????. It doesn't "means nothing". We elect officials (GWB) who, in turn, appoint the cabal. Imagine what this case would mean had John Kerry been elected, and allowed to appoint two judges.

One of the primary reasons that I voted a Republican during the last two Presidential Elections was because of the impending retirement of a couple of the U.S. Supreme Court justices.
 
Only a lawyer could call the wording of the Second Ammendment "convoluted."
Yep. And keep in mind the SCOTUS is the one that created an unrestricted right to abortion out of thin air.

OTOH, the current court is probably the best court we have had in 20 years as far as not making things up out of thin air, although the eminent domain case was pretty iffy, as are many of the commerce clause cases.

The problem with many of the badly decided cases is that judges are not inclined to throw out precedent, especially SC precedent. I can understand such a reluctance. It is inherently unfair to change these kinds of rulings, even when they are clearly just wrong.

A lot of people point to cases like Dred Scott as proof that a wrong precedent can be righted down the road, but really, Dred Scott was decided correctly, according to the constitution as it existed at that time.

Even cases like Brown versus Board of Education, which is almost iconic in its stature as a great decision, is more about emotional issues than it is about the constitution. We might agree with the general feeling of the decision, but the way they got there is ugly.

This one decision may well have led to the theory that the courts had to right all kinds of perceived social ills, something we have since found has failed miserably. Billions and billions of dollars have been wasted by every level of government trying to fix things the courts have found are faulty in out society, but so far, I am unaware of a single case where these court ordered remedies have produced a positive result. In many cases, they have made things far worse.
 
"The NRA would lose its loudest fund-raising drum if this question is answered," says Carl Bogus, a leading scholar who favors the militia rights view of the amendment.

Which is such obvious BS that it makes clear that the aptly named Carl Bogus is more interested in gun control than accurate constitutional interpretation.

"There's this incredible temptation, which I don't understand, to think that one Second Amendment case will resolve everything," says Gura. "It doesn't work that way." Even if the Court declares it protects an individual right, the scope of the right will have to be fleshed out, he says. "It will take an eternity to resolve."

And once again, Alan Gura shows an excellent grasp of the battlefield and what lies ahead.
 
I'm glad the antis have decided to appeal the Parker Case all the way up to the Supreme Court. Now each and every anti has to suffer their guts tied up in knots with fear of a ruling that's going to destroy one group or the other, and know that it very well could be them that gets hit with the wrecking ball of truth.

If I'm gonna be worried into a pretzel, I want my enemies to be the same way.
 
I'm glad the antis have decided to appeal the Parker Case all the way up to the Supreme Court. Now each and every anti has to suffer their guts tied up in knots with fear of a ruling that's going to destroy one group or the other, and know that it very well could be them that gets hit with the wrecking ball of truth.

I think you place too much faith in a favorable ruling for us.

I, being a pro, am in the exact same situtation that you describe the anti's in.
 
Even cases like Brown versus Board of Education, which is almost iconic in its stature as a great decision, is more about emotional issues than it is about the constitution. We might agree with the general feeling of the decision, but the way they got there is ugly.

The states foot the bill for public schools, and the citizens are afforded equal protection by the Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment; since it wasn't hard to prove that segregated schools were to the disadvantage of one side of the divide, the only logical stretch is the construing of "equal protection" to mean "equal right to services of the state"--that's not much of a canyon.

Now, the "implicit right to privacy" cited in Roe v. Wade that supersedes the explicitly-stated rights of the states to rule on all matters not addressed by the feds, that's another story--even Ruth Bader Ginsburg has said so. I could cite a thousand and one other examples of judicial activism, the most egregious being limitless interpretations of the Commerce Clause; Brown would be low on that list, if it showed up at all.
 
With Justice having a seizure Tuesday...no telling WHAT is going to happen
now..
http://www.yahoo.com/s/135783/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070731/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_roberts
excerpt

WASHINGTON - Chief Justice John Roberts is spending part of his summer vacation in a hospital bed after suffering a seizure in Maine.

Roberts, 52, had a similar, unexplained episode in 1993.

Doctors who evaluated the chief justice on Monday said the incident was a "benign idiopathic seizure," meaning they found no tumor, stroke or other explanation. The seizure caused Roberts to fall on a dock and he sustained minor scrapes, Supreme Court spokeswoman Kathy Arberg said.

He was kept overnight at the Penobscot Bay Medical Center in Rockport for observation, Arberg said.

By definition, someone who has had more than one seizure without any other cause is determined to have epilepsy, said Dr. Marc Schlosberg, a Washington Hospital Center neurologist who is not involved in the Roberts case.
Could this be a viable reason NOT to accept the case ?
 
(IANAL but) I can't see how it would impact anything at all, other than that a probable vote in favor of Parker/Heller would be offline. But between Sen. Schumer saying the Senate would stonewall any of Pres. Bush's court nominees right now, and Bush presumably then going to a recess appointment, there'd be some major-league federal fireworks if CJ Roberts is medically down for the count.
 
Personally I feel that everyone is falling for the MSM Sensationalism/Drama Machine.

He had another seizure years ago with no lasting effects.

Poopie Happens....move on with life.
 
''Little is known about the other justices' Second Amendment views.''

Yeah.... umm... okay.... Although it may come down to Kennedy.

We have to have Roberts. Otherwise we are likely not going to get a favorable ruling. Does anyone know a world class neurologist? After seeing what conditions are like at Walter Reed government medicine is just as likely to do him in as cure him.
 
Pray for Justice Roberts!

And pray for a good outcome to our case.

It doesn't "means nothing". We elect officials (GWB) who, in turn, appoint the cabal. Imagine what this case would mean had John Kerry been elected, and allowed to appoint two judges.

:eek::eek::eek:

That is why I spent a lot of time on my knees praying
 
nd Bush presumably then going to a recess appointment,

Keep in mind that recess appointments don't require Senate approval, and that it was only the need for Senate approval that kept Bush from putting a personal crony with no particular originalist creds on the Supreme court. Twice. If one of those votes WE need gets replaced with a recess appointee, we're in trouble, because Bush at this point has absolutely no need AT ALL to make any guestures in our direction, save ones involving upraised fingers.
 
And keep in mind the SCOTUS is the one that created an unrestricted right to abortion out of thin air.

Without discussing abortion, the SCOTUS didn't create any right in their ruling. Too many people think that if something isn't explicitly in the Constitution there isn't a right to it. Your inherent rights are limitless, the Constitution merely notes some of the most important ones. For instance, the freedom of movement is a right you have and despite what people want you to believe, driving is a right not a priviledge. That right, however can be regulated by the States and can be nullified by another's property rights (i.e. trespassing). In both cases your right still exists albeit on the right hand side of the street and up to the locked gate. The notion that you only have the rights listed in the Constitution is ridiculous and is one of the reasons the BOR was not originally planned. The Federalists were afraid people would start to think that only those rights in the BOR existed, which is not true.
 
Deavis, you've adequately demonstrated that the Supreme court doesn't "create" a right every time they announce a right not explicitly listed in the Constitution. That's a far cry from proving that they didn't "create" a right out of thin air in a specific instance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top