Legal use for concealed weapon?

[Jake Benson]

Quote -- "Thank God most cops and Judges are sane and well intentioned!"

I'm not so sure of that. I think there is a definite control factor that drives too many cops and judges. They enjoy the control over others. It is an ego thing. You would think law enforcement would always side with the honest citizen's right to defend his/her self, but not so. Very few police departments endorse private citizens having access to guns and using them for self defense. They see that as their domain, which amounts to control.

 

[USAF_Vet]

In Ann Arbor Michigan I remember a case where a guy was arrested for having a knife on the dashboard of the car - plainly visible to the arresting officer and the world at large. The charge was carrying a concealed weapon.

Yup. Michigan has some stupid laws like that. Open carry of a firearms is legal... unless you get in your car. Then, because the weapon is inside the vehicle, it is concealed. But only if anyone in the vehicle has direct access to the weapon. If it is being legally transported (i.e. in a case in the trunk) then it's not a threat and not illegal. It's actually more concealed, but since it lacks the threat, its ok.

Michigan knife laws are equally lame and sometimes difficult to understand. I carry my Benchmade folder daily, concealed in my pocket. No permit required. But if I carry, concealed or otherwise, a Benchmade automatic, I'm breaking the law. Same as if I carry any knife over a certain length. But it seems to be ok if I'm hunting. If the knife in question is legal to carry, as long as you aren't violating some obscure local ordinance, you can keep it in your pocket, on the dashboard, or anywhere else in the vehicle.

Being in Ann Arbor, most likely the guy was charged because he was on UofM campus property, which is interspersed around the city, making it very difficult to avoid breaking their 'no weapons' laws. Since the UofM has their own constitution and enforceable laws, there is no reciprocity between the State of Michigan and the University of Michigan.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Jake Benson said:

I think there is a definite control factor that drives too many cops and judges. They enjoy the control over others. It is an ego thing. You would think law enforcement would always side with the honest citizen's right to defend his/her self, but not so. Very few police departments endorse private citizens having access to guns and using them for self defense. They see that as their domain, which amounts to control.

The monopoly on the use of force is very jealously guarded because it is what separates the police from the commoners. The recent YouTube video of the Canton Ohio cop going berserk is a perfect example of that mindset in action. That being said, this attitude seems to be somewhat regional as the police in South are often strong 2A supporters.

 

[SleazyRider]

There was a time when being black was a crime if you were in the "wrong" part of town especially after dark. The law presuposed that Black people were up to no good ...

Where and when, specifically, was this a crime? And what law are you referring to? As a student of history, I'm curious. Thanks!

 

[Owen Sparks]

Where and when, specifically, was this a crime? And what law are you referring to? As a student of history, I'm curious. Thanks!

They were called "Black Codes" and were inacted in the South after the Civil War and extended through the Jim Crow era. A specific example was vagrancy laws that declared a black to be vagrant if unemployed. Blacks were considered agricultural workers and and were not allowed to be out of their part of town after dark. I can specifically remember that there was a black man who tested this law in various Southern cities back in the 1960's. His thing was walking on public streets and sidewalks in affluent white neighborhoods after dark and getting arrested on purpose. After enough appeals he got the laws changed.

Edited in:
Peaceful non-compliance was used very successfully during the Civil Rights Movement not only by the walking man but by Martin Luther King who in turn patterned his strategy after Gandhi. Remember when all the liberty activists entered the New Hampshire state house wearing holstered pistols to protest the law? None were arrested and they got the law overturned.

http://americaswatchtower.com/2011/01/05/new-hampshire-republicans-overturn-state-house-gun-ban/

 

[Amb]

Where and when, specifically, was this a crime? And what law are you referring to? As a student of history, I'm curious. Thanks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town

 

[SleazyRider]

Owen, Amb,
Read your thoughtful posts and links ... Outrageous! Thanks for the info!

 

[Owen Sparks]

To tie this all together, Ayn Rand once called racism the lowest form of collectivism as it stereotypes every member of an entire race as being no better than the lowest common denominator. Weapons laws are essentially no different in that they stereotype anyone in possession of a weapon as the worst possible case, a violent criminal.

Having the means to commit a crime is not the same as having intent to commit a crime. Look at it like this, every single one of you reading this forum has the potential to be looking at kiddie porn right now. You have a computer and internet access. Does that prove that you have the intent to do something illegal? Of course not. Besides, there are plenty of legitimate uses for the internet just as there is a legitimate use for weapons.

Is the proper response to problem of pedophilia banning the internet for everyone because a few bad people misuse it?

 

[Sam1911]

Dude, you are seriously "preaching to the choir."

Maybe we should get rid of gun-control laws. What do you say? Do we need a poll?

 

[Owen Sparks]

Read my signature line below.

 

[rori]

It was against the law to be a black man in my home town. It was called "sunset laws" and if you were black and in town after sunset you were arrested and charged. These were still in effect into at least the sixty's. Frank

 

[mortablunt]

"This is madness!"
"Madness... madness?"
"This is gun laws!"

I got into a funny discussion with my dorm advisor a few days back over a matter similar to this. What was going on is that he said that he doesn't really care if anyone smokes Marijuana or if underaged students drink booze. However, he said that all weapons and even weapon replicas were outright banned. Later, I challenged him on this. I told him that Marijuana is legal for nobody to possess or use and therefore, he ought to be strict about it. Also, if underaged students are drinking, which is illegal, they ought to come down hard on that too because it is a crime. However, I argued, that just about everyone at the college is legally allowed to own a machine gun, then we ought to be allowed to have weapons if we so desire. His response was to say: 'But you don't use weed or beer to hurt anyone. Guns- knives are only meant to kill. That's why you can't have them at college." I responded: "If weed is so harmless, then why is it nationally banned and yet you don't see any problem with it? Firearms are legal all over the country and were not allowed to have them? Your logic doesn't make sense."

After that, the conversation pretty much died down into a match between a gun nut and a anti and ended shortly afterwards.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Guns- knives are only meant to kill. That's why you can't have them at college.

You need to explain the difference between killing and murder to your dorm advisor. There is a time to kill in order to prevent your own murder. That is why we employ the military and police as hired as guards to protect our lives liberty and property. Unfortunatly the police usually they can't get there in time to save you so if you have to do the job yourself and need the proper tools just like those that the police use.

The marijuana comparison makes a poor argument though. Somebody who is smoking a joint in their dorm room poses no danger to you or your property. Again, read my tag line below and substitute the phrase "with a firearm" with the phrase "while drunk, stoned or high".

 

[Toforo]

What an odd thread....

From the legality of possessing tire thumpers (practically identical to a billy club) in your vehicle...... to

racism...... to

illegal substances in a dorm room.

 

[Owen Sparks]

What an odd thread....

From the legality of possessing tire thumpers (practically identical to a billy club) in your vehicle...... to

racism...... to

illegal substances in a dorm room.

It may seem odd but what we are really discussing here is principles.

There is a mindset called COLLECTIVISM that holds that every member of any perceived group should be considered as no more capable than the least member of that group or weakest link. For example:

If some black people cannot behave themselves at night, then NO black people should be allowed in town after dark.

If some people can’t relax responsibly with a drink, then NOBODY can drink. (remember prohibition?)

And the main concern here, if some people use weapons to commit violent crimes then EVERYBODY in possession of a weapon will be treated like a criminal.

Collectivism is the polar opposite of individualism. Self-defense is a highly individualized action and is often frowned upon by statists who believe in collective group rights rather than individual rights. The lawyers for DC argued that the 2A right to keep and bear arms was a collective right in the Heller case.

See how these variegated topics all tie together now?

 

[we are not amused]

While the discussion may have drifted a bit, it is relevant. The Gun Control Laws were an attempt to disarm Black people.

The general "concealed weapons" laws which include tire thumpers and other objects are part of that.

By the way, the "Black codes" were not limited to the South anymore than the KKK was. They were quite common in the industrial Mid-West as well.


As middle aged fat old white man, I am less subject to harassment under those laws, at least till I go traveling and the big city cops see all my pro-Second Amendment bumper stickers and the NRA sticker in my windshield. (also my NRA cap and jacket)

As the various non-gun concealed weapon laws vary from State to State, and often City to City, it behooves each of us to remember our Constitutional Rights, and never voluntarily allow LE to search your vehicle. If they have legal cause, they don't need your permission, if they don't have cause, it is none of their business.

 

[Cop Bob]

This thread has bounced around a bit...!
I do remember seeing some of those "Sunset Signs" in my youth..

As far as a "Tire Thumper, Baseball Bat, 500MCM wire, a Chevy or Ford Timing Chain.. or for that matter a ball point pen.. Etc... The OP did not state which state he was in, or city he hails from.

However when it comes to "Objects with Peaceful Means" it is not the object that becomes the issue.. It is 'It's Manner of Intended Use" that will become the issue and the ultimate deciding factor...

If you are chasing small children down the street with a baseball bat... we have a problem...

If you are fending off multiple attackers at the gas pumps when they tried to snatch your wallet.. were going to be OK... (at least in My part of the world)

Each incident would have to stand upon it's own merits...