Legalities of online gun sales? Need FFL?

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Babylon

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Hi, I'm just curious if websites like GunBroker.com needs a FFL in order to operate? I am very curious because they don't actually deal in firearms they simply offer a forum for private sale. Does anyone know the legalities of this? Is it something anyone could do or does it need a FFL or special permissions.

Thanks.
 
I would say no, gunbroker sells nothing so the owner probably couldn't get an FFL even if he/she wanted.
 
They do not buy or sell anything. Within your state, state laws apply and you can usually do face to face sales. Out of state you must ship to an FFL or C&R holder depending on the gun. Some FFL's will not accept guns from an individual and require you to have an FFL on your end. Most will accept shipment from an individual and they handle the transfer to the buyer. Long guns can be shipped USPS, UPS, or FEDEX. Handguns cannot go USPS unless you are an FFL and it is usually cheaper to run it thru an FFL and have him ship it USPS.
 
Some service providers won't accept gun ads of any kind; Facebook says only for "legal" gun sales and will remove an ad if the police or someone else reports it.

You don't need a dealer's FFL to advertise a gun for sale. But you do need one if you "engage in the business" of selling guns. What that is in terms of number of guns has not been set by BATFE - they determine it based on the circumstances.

But if you sell a gun directly to a resident of another state, no matter how you and he got in contact, you are in violation of federal law. You must ship/take the gun to a dealer in that state and have the buyer pick it up from him.

If you are a resident of a state that requires a dealer to handle a sale (i.e., no direct private sales allowed), you are in violation of state law if you sell a gun to a resident of your own state without following the rules. Again, how the contact was made is irrelevant; it could be a web site, e-mail, a newspaper ad, a note on a store bulletin board, meeting at the range, or whatever.

P.S. A C&R (03) FFL means nothing in regard to selling or shipping a gun; it allows the licensee to RECEIVE SOME firearms in interstate commerce without being in the business of dealing in guns.

Jim
 
Awesome. Thanks for that. I was just not sure because GB does profit from the private sale of guns so I was curious. Thanks a lot!
 
Some service providers won't accept gun ads of any kind; Facebook says only for "legal" gun sales and will remove an ad if the police or someone else reports it.

You don't need a dealer's FFL to advertise a gun for sale. But you do need one if you "engage in the business" of selling guns. What that is in terms of number of guns has not been set by BATFE - they determine it based on the circumstances.

But if you sell a gun directly to a resident of another state, no matter how you and he got in contact, you are in violation of federal law. You must ship/take the gun to a dealer in that state and have the buyer pick it up from him.

If you are a resident of a state that requires a dealer to handle a sale (i.e., no direct private sales allowed), you are in violation of state law if you sell a gun to a resident of your own state without following the rules. Again, how the contact was made is irrelevant; it could be a web site, e-mail, a newspaper ad, a note on a store bulletin board, meeting at the range, or whatever.

P.S. A C&R (03) FFL means nothing in regard to selling or shipping a gun; it allows the licensee to RECEIVE SOME firearms in interstate commerce without being in the business of dealing in guns.

Jim


To clarify one point.

Handguns and "other" firearms must be transferred in the buyer's home state.

Long guns can be transferred in either state so long as the buyer can possess it in their home state.
 
You have the federal law that must be complied with plus the laws in the seller's state plus the laws in the buyer's state. There's a lot involved in on-line gun transfers.

On line sales or auctions are NOT a way of evading gun laws in spite of what the antis want folks to believe. The antis try to equate it to the old pre-1968 mail order gun business, and it is not the same.

I checked into putting in bids on an on-line gun auction in Pigeon Forge TN (I live in Kingsport TN). There were two ways to get the gun: I could drive to Pigeon Forge and do the 4473 and NICS BG check with their FFL ($10 fee), or their FFL could transfer the gun to a local FFL gun shop and I could do the 4473 and NICS BG check which would be $10 BG check fee plus $20 for the dealer's time logging the gun into and out of his books. (He could be making a new gun sale in the time tied up in doing a FFL to FFL Xfer and make more money.)
 
When selling guns in the course of normal business, it often comes down to a matter of possession, if you take possession of the gun for purposes of selling it in your normal course of business, you need to have an FFL, if you do NOT take possession of the gun, GENERALLY you do NOT need to have an FFL when selling guns in the course of normal business.

An example: Auctioneers can sell guns at estate or farm auctions WITHOUT an FFL as they never take possession of said guns, if on the other hand, they take possession of the guns at a facility they own to run auctions, then they should have an FFL
 
newfalguy101 When selling guns in the course of normal business, it often comes down to a matter of possession, if you take possession of the gun for purposes of selling it in your normal course of business, you need to have an FFL, if you do NOT take possession of the gun, GENERALLY you do NOT need to have an FFL when selling guns in the course of normal business.
ATF disagrees:
March 2013 FFL NEWSLETTER Volume 2
Page 6
Brokering of Firearms/Drop Shipments
Individuals who engage in the business of brokering firearms by buying firearms from a manufacturer, selling those firearms to a licensed third person, and then arranging with the manufacturer to have the firearms dropped shipped to the purchaser, are required to obtain a Federal firearms license.
ATF has experienced difficulty in tracing firearms in instances where drop shipments have been made to third parties, and where the recordkeeping procedures employed by the three licensed parties do not lend themselves to easy and fast tracing of firearms. ATF is providing recordkeeping procedures for “drop shipments” as set forth below:
Licensee “A” orders firearms from licensee “B.”•
Licensee “B” transmits the order to licensee “C” for • direct shipment (drop shipment) to licensee “A.”
Licensee “A” must provide licensee “C” a certified • copy of its Federal firearms license prior to the shipment of the order.
Licensee “C” shall enter the disposition of the • firearms into his or her acquisition and disposition (A&D) record to licensee “A.”
Licensee “A” shall enter the acquisition of the firearms • into his or her A&D record from licensee “C.”
Licensee “B” makes • NO entries into his or her A&D record because he or she does not take physical possession of the firearms.
7

See ATF Procedure 75–3 for further information on the drop shipment of firearms.
If you would like a determination whether your business activity may require a Federal firearms license, you may contact your local ATF office (www.atf.gov/field) or the Firearms Industry Programs Branch at [email protected].


An example: Auctioneers can sell guns at estate or farm auctions WITHOUT an FFL as they never take possession of said guns, if on the other hand, they take possession of the guns at a facility they own to run auctions, then they should have an FFL
Almost. "taking possession at a facility" has nothing to do with it. https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-96-2.pdf
18 U.S.C. § 923(a): ENGAGING IN THE BUSINESS OF DEALING IN FIREARMS (Auctioneers)
Auctioneers who regularly conduct consignment-type auctions of firearms, for example, held every 1-2 months, on behalf of firearms owners where the auctioneer takes possession of the firearms pursuant to a consignment contract with the owner of the firearms giving the auctioneer authority to sell the firearms and providing for a commission to be paid by the owner upon sale of the firearms are required to obtain a license as a dealer in firearms.

ATF Rul. 96-2
[Status of ruling: Active]
An association of auctioneers has asked the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) for a ruling concerning the auctions conducted by their members and whether the sale of firearms at such auctions requires a Federal firearms license as a dealer in firearms.
The auctioneers’ association stated that their members generally conduct two types of auctions: estate-type auctions and consignment auctions. In estate-type auctions, articles to be auctioned, including firearms, are sold by the executor of the estate of an individual. In these cases the firearms belong to and are possessed by the executor. The auctioneer acts as an agent of the executor and assists the executor in finding buyers for the firearms. The firearms are possessed by the estate and their sale to third parties is controlled by the estate. The auctioneer is paid a commission on the sale of each firearm by the estate at the conclusion of the auction.
The association states that, in consignment-type auctions, an auctioneer may take possession of firearms in advance of the auction. The firearms are inventoried, evaluated, and tagged for identification. The firearms belong to individuals or businesses who have entered into a consignment agreement with the auctioneer giving the auctioneer authority to sell the firearms. The agreement states that the auctioneer has the exclusive right to sell the items listed on the contract at a location, time, and date to be selected by the auctioneer. The agreement also provides for the payment of a commission by the owner to the auctioneer. The consignment-type auctions generally involve accepting firearms for auction from more than one owner. Also, these auctions are held on a regular basis, for example, every 1-2 months.
Section 923(a), Title 18, U.S.C., provides that no person shall engage in the business of dealing in firearms until he has filed an application and received a license to do so. Section 922(a)(1), Title 18, U.S.C., provides that it is unlawful for any person, other than a licensee, to engage in the business of dealing in firearms. Licensees generally may not conduct business away from their licensed premises.
The term “dealer” is defined at 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(11)(A) to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail. The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A dealer can be “engaged in the
business” without taking title to the firearms that are sold. However, the term does not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C).
In the case of estate-type auctions, the auctioneer acts as an agent of the executor and assists the executor in finding buyers for the estate’s firearms. The firearms are possessed by the estate, and the sales of firearms are made by the estate. In these cases, the auctioneer does not meet the definition of “engaging in the business” as a dealer in firearms and would not require a license. An auctioneer engaged in estate-type auctions, whether licensed or not, may perform this function, including delivery of the firearms, away from the business premises.
In the case of consignment-type auctions held on a regular basis, for example, every 1-2 months, where persons consign their firearms to the auctioneer for sale pursuant to an agreement as described above, the auctioneer would be “engaging in the business” and would require a license. The auctioneer would be disposing of firearms as a regular course of trade or business within the definition of a “dealer” under § 921(a)(11)(A) and must comply with the licensing requirements of the law.
As previously stated, licensed auctioneers generally must engage in the business from their licensed premises. However, an auctioneer may conduct an auction at a location other than his licensed premises by displaying the firearms at the auction site, agreeing to the terms of sale of the firearms, then returning the firearms to the licensed premises for delivery to the purchaser.
Held: Persons who conduct estate-type auctions at which the auctioneer assists the estate in selling the estate’s firearms, and the firearms are possessed and transferred by the estate, do not require a Federal firearms license.
Held further: Persons who regularly conduct consignment-type auctions, for example, held every 1-2 months, where the auctioneer takes possession of the firearms pursuant to a consignment contract giving the auctioneer the exclusive right and authority to sell the firearms at a location, time and date to be selected by the auctioneer and providing for a commission to be paid upon sale are required to obtain a license as a dealer in firearms pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 923(a).
 
With respect Tom, your answer quoting ATF regs, and mine look awfully similar to my eyes..

The OP didn't ask anything about drop shipping from online dealers, he asked about online auctions, which my answer addressed
 
Tom was not responding to the OP but to newfalguy101's comment:
When selling guns in the course of normal business, it often comes down to a matter of possession, if you take possession of the gun for purposes of selling it in your normal course of business, you need to have an FFL, if you do NOT take possession of the gun, GENERALLY you do NOT need to have an FFL when selling guns in the course of normal business.
Granted this thread is about auctions BUT newfalguy101's comment, taken outside of that narrow topic, is incorrect. The ATF has repeatedly held that the buying and reselling activity, not possession, constitutes dealing, which is why drop-shippers need an FFL.
 
Maybe ownership is a better word than possession, at some point the middlemen FFL's are the legal owners, whereas gunbroker at no time is the legal owner of the weapons offered on their site.
 
Upon further reflection, I believe I have a better answer than my previous reply.

Gunbroker and sites like them do not need FFL's because...........they DO NOT SELL GUNS!!!!!

They are more analogous to Gunshow promoters, they provide a venue to bring buyers and sellers together........no more and no less
 
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