Selling - identification of FFL

[Fat Boy]

Good Morning,

I have listed a gun for sale on Gunbroker.com. My requirement was that I receive an ink-signed copy of the FFL to whom I would be shipping the gun prior to shipping. A potential buyer asked if I would accept the first 3 and last 5 numbers of the FFL; I am not clear on all details, but evidently the FFL is hesitant to send what I requested.

Has anyone heard of this, or followed this practice? I am new to selling on Gunbroker and need some direction...

Thanks!

 

[ilbob]

I'd stick to your guns - pun intended.

 

[fletcher]

The FFL I shipped a gun to for an out of state sale was also hesitant to give me all the information.

So, I accepted the numbers to verify that it was valid, and shipped it to the address listed on the FFL to cover myself. Probably not as thorough as it could be, but it works.

 

[Aahzz]

They should always send a copy of the FFL - to do otherwise is asking for problems. The first 3 and last 5 are what's required to do a lookup on the ATF website, but I always require a physical, ink-signed copy of the license - and I've never had anyone balk at that.

 

[FCFC]

I think there is some online method of seeing a record of a FFL. Perhaps that's what the potential buyer wants you to do.

Getting a hard copy of the FFL should not be a big burden for any buyer. They can just get one and send it to you with their payment.

I'd be careful with someone who didn't want to produce one. They're so easy to get.

Shipping a gun to a bad address is a bad nightmare.

 

[ilbob]

realistically, if you sent the gun to the address on the license that you looked up on the BATF web site, i don't see how it could be a major issue. but it seems odd that he is opposed to doing so.

 

[Fat Boy]

UPDATE: I input the numbers on the website and found the location of the shop holding the FFL, called them and asked about this situation. They said that they have had problems when they have provided a copy of the FFL to unlicensed individuals in the past. They mentioned the option of having an FFL on my end ship the gun; they would provide the information to an FFL here...After shipping and an additional cost to my FFL, this gun is getting expensive...

 

[MGshaggy]

The numbers are to lookup the FFL on the BATFE EZ-check website:

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

Many FFLs do not want to give out copies anymore because of the potential for abuse and the extra hassle of sending out their FFL. As a seller you have no duty to get a copy of an FFL - only to make sure the recipient of the gun is an FFL. You can do so by checking the validity and address of the FFL on the EZ check website, printing it out for your records, and keeping a copy of the shipping label or shipping receipt showing the package sent to the same address. If you want to dig your heels in, and not ship to anyone who won't send a paper copy of their FFL, thats your choice, but I think you're going to find it increasingly difficult to find buyers who can comply as more FFLs start using EZ-check.

 

[XD_fan]

Did they say what kind of problems sending a copy to an individual has caused?

 

[nalioth]

It is not legally required for an unlicensed person to receive an 'ink signed copy' of a receivers FFL before shipping.

The unlicensed individual only needs verify ( via EZCheck ) that the dealer is 'legit'. Printing out the page from the EZCheck site and taking it with you to the shipping agent is all that is usually needed.


The problems with folks sending out their FFL to non-licensees is that some of the *******s put 'em on the scanner and do some Photoshop work and then take 'their new license' to the fun shows and try to have fun with them...

Very bad juju.

 

[MGshaggy]

Did they say what kind of problems sending a copy to an individual has caused?

First off, its a pain in the butt to send out a paper copy for every customer who wants to buy something from another individual. Second, there have been documented cases where people got copies of an FFL, used photoshop to change addresses on the face of it, and then sent out the forged FFL to fraudently obtain guns from other FFLs and distributors with the unsuspecting dealer's FFL license numbers still on there.

edited to add:

Nalioth beat me to it...

 

[Fat Boy]

XD Fan; they did not detail the problems-

A local shop where I trade frequently will ship the gun for me, with a transfer fee of $40.00 plus shipping-


I am about ready to call the whole thing off and try trading the gun for something else to my local dealer-

 

[brighamr]

Fat Boy,

The requirement to receive an ink signed FFL, is one of the reasons I don't buy guns online anymore. According to BATF, a faxed copy should suffice. The last time I wanted to buy a gun online from someone who required an inked FFL, I spoke with 5 different FFLs in my area (from pawn shops, to mom and pop gun stores to retail chains). NONE of them would send a signed FFL to a non-FFL. They didn't have a problem with faxing, but sending an inked FFL was like cryptonite to superman.

I don't understand why FFLs are so hesitant, but I went through such BS that from now on I just purchase locally to avoid all the nonsense.


Just trying to give you some perspective. If I were you, I'd either try to sell it locally; or accept faxed copies per BATF. Either one of these will make the process quicker and cheaper for both parties. JMHO

 

[nalioth]

The requirement to receive an ink signed FFL, is one of the reasons I don't buy guns online anymore

The "ink signed FFL" is no longer a requirement for FFL holders.

The FFL can be faxed or emailed (as a scan) between dealers since a couple of years back.

 

[Gator]

The first three and last five digits will allow you to verify the FFL through FFL eZcheck, this is all that is required. It is safer for the FFL and easy for the shipper. Just print the eZcheck page for your records.

 

[KevinK]

I've bought a couple of guns on gunbroker and while two FFL's faxed the copy with no problem, one of them would not mail a copy to an unlicensed person, saying they would only mail to a bona fide FFL.

They did give me the first 3 last / 5 digits (which I verified through EZcheck), but the seller balked at that. Part of the problem may be that on gunbroker, it says the unlicensed shipper must have a copy of the FFL. It should likely be updated to say printing the page from EZcheck would also suffice.

Thanks,

Kevin

Shipment by Unlicensed Persons
Any shipper who does not have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to be an 'unlicensed person'. This section contains information on how unlicensed persons can ship firearms. If you have an FFL, please skip to the next section for shipping suggestions.
The most important thing to know is that you must only ship guns to a licensee. If the buyer is not a licensed dealer, he will have to make arrangements with a dealer in his state to ship the item to.

Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the licensee's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license. You must inform the carrier that the package contains a firearm. Of course, the firearm cannot be shipped loaded; ammunition may not be shipped in the same box. You should take the copy of the signed FFL with you when you take the item to be shipped in case the shipper wishes to see it.

 

[natman]

First off, its a pain in the butt to send out a paper copy for every customer who wants to buy something from another individual. Second, there have been documented cases where people got copies of an FFL, used photoshop to change addresses on the face of it, and then sent out the forged FFL to fraudently obtain guns from other FFLs and distributors with the unsuspecting dealer's FFL license numbers still on there.

I have heard of this sort of thing, but it strikes me as more of a problem in theory than in practice, especially when dealing with distributors. A quick lookup at EZ-check would reveal the fraud, and a call to ATF would set up an easy arrest when the guns were received at the bogus address.

Having to use an FFL on the sending end is unecessary and forcing the customer to pay TWO FFL fees in order to avoid this "problem" is ridiculous. Passing just the portion of the FFL number to verify the FFL via EZ-check has potential, does anyone have a citation that covers its legality?

 

[rcmodel]

How about this one one.

I have a friend who is an FFL dealer.
As such, his FFL is already on file with many on-line dealers.

He recently received a large box from CDNN, and had no idea what it was, as he hadn't ordered anything from them.
Upon opening it, he found it contained 12 SIG P6's!

So he called CDNN (his dime) and found out "Joe Blow" had ordered the 12 SIG's without asking my dealer friend, and paid for them on his credit card.

So my friend calls up Joe Blow long-distance (his dime again) and finds out Joe saw an opportunity to make some extra money and get a free SIG, buying & selling P-6's to all his little friends. (Straw Purchases)
If he ran out of friends, he planned to sell the rest through newspaper adds. (More Straw Purchases)

So, my FFL friend had to ship the 12 guns back to CDNN (his dime again, only it was way more then a dime this time).

Then, good old Joe Blow came to the shop in a snit and demanded his guns, as he had already bought & paid for them.

I understand it got to be an "Unpleasant Series of Events" before it was all over.

rcmodel

 

[MGshaggy]

I have heard of this sort of thing, but it strikes me as more of a problem in theory than in practice, especially when dealing with distributors. A quick lookup at EZ-check would reveal the fraud, and a call to ATF would set up an easy arrest when the guns were received at the bogus address.

Well thats part of the problem - when handed a paper copy, most people rely on the paper copy rather than checking it independantly. Abd to be fair, EZ check has only been in operation for a while. As to legality, its perfectly legal for an individual (non-FFL) shipping a gun interstate to rely on the EZ check website to verify the validity and address of an FFL. Federal law only requires that the non-FFL seller send it to a dealer if going interstate (see 18 USC 922(a)(1-5)). The EZ-check website is the best way of ascertaining the current validity of an FFL and their address (and is provided by BATFE for exactly that purpose). There is no reckordkeeping requirement for an unlicensed individual, but as I mentioned above, keeping a copy of the EZ check verification page and a copy of the shipping reciept to the same address on the EZcheck verification would serve as just as good and credible evidence of compliance with the statute as holding a paper copy of the FFL.

 

[Nickotym]

I don't believe buying 12 guns and then later selling them is a straw purchase, but I believe if you do buy and sell too much at a time, BATFE gets suspicious of you dealing without a license

 

[zoom6zoom]

I don't believe buying 12 guns and then later selling them is a straw purchase,

He was purchasing them with the intent to resell them, without a license. Perhaps not exactly a straw purchase, but definitely "engaging in the business" without an FFL.

 

[Fat Boy]

"Well thats part of the problem - when handed a paper copy, most people rely on the paper copy rather than checking it independantly"

This is a good point to me; I have only sold via the internet once before, and without question relied on the copy of the FFL sent to me. If nothing else, I am learning. I appreciate all the comments!

 

[Oro]

Fat Boy,

The email-verification is a legitimate way to verify an FFL and do business. The BATF has been allowing it since last summer or Fall.

Often, it's just a hassle to drive 30 miles or something to the FFL to get a paper copy when it's not really necessary. Other issues are:

1) Faxes don't work reliably
2) Some FFL's are adamant about not giving out their copied FFLs.

Frankly, going through an FFL in shipping is often your best way. Fed Ex and UPS won't take it unless it's overnight, so that's $60 right there. Even at a $40 transfer fee (I have never had to go more than $20), the FFL can use the priority mail and send it in a flat rate box for $10, so the total cost is $50 and still cheaper than UPS.

It's the byzantine world of Gov't regs, and corporate indifference (I'm told the reason they require it overnight is because their ground staff steals an unacceptable high rate of handguns otherwise). There is nothing in the regs that make the carriers have to do overnight, they just choose to.

 

[nalioth]

Fed Ex and UPS won't take it unless it's overnight

This applies only to handguns, and only to UPS ( have fun at FedEx trying to ship a firearm if you're a regular joe ). Long guns can be sent UPS via their Ground Service, if you like.

United States Postal Service will accept long guns for shipment by anyone, but handguns only from licensed 01 FFL holders.

 

[Oro]

Nalioth,

All correct. I had made the assumption he was talking about a handgun - probably because I had just emailed my FFL to arrange for shipping one I sold. I don't think it is actually addressed in here which he's trying to ship. My mistake.