legality of selling several firarms for a friend

[trapperjohn]

I have a friend who just moved to a location where he doesnt feel he has the storage for his gun collection. he has 35-40 firearms he wants to sell.
Would it be legal for me to sell them for him via online auctions? I know I would need to ship to an ffl, But I wonder if i need to be an ffl to a) sell that many guns, or b) sell them to somebody else.

 

[PMDW]

Perfectly legal. I sell guns for my boss via gunbroker all the time. All you're doing is listing them.

 

[Preacherman]

As long as you're selling them through an FFL, you're legal. If you try to sell that many in private sales, person-to-person, the ATF will take a very unhealthy interest in you (if they find out).

 

[whm1974]

talk to a lawyer first.

-Bill

 

[sturmruger]

If he is going to sell them many why not list all of them here first. We have enough members that he should be able to get some decent prices.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I doubt there would be much problem even if you sold them face-to-face unless ATF could prove you made a profit on the sales. As you are merely a go between for a friend, they could not claim you were acting as a "firearms dealer" without an FFL.

 

[Preacherman]

I hate to contradict you, full-auto buddy, but the ATF can charge you with anything and everything they can think of! You and I may not regard it as justified, but they're going by the laws of the land and their own regulations (which carry the force of law), and if they find a private individual selling off 30 or 40 weapons, they almost certainly will regard this as dealing without an FFL. This is why I said earlier, and I repeat: if these guns are sold through an FFL, there should be no problem. If they're sold privately (at least, if more than a few are sold privately), there is indeed a potential problem, and I'd advise against it.

 

[Bear Gulch]

There is a reason that they license dealers. I would recommend consigning them through a FFL. A sale (even ftf) to somone who gets busted could lead to complications. Also I would worry about being seen as helping others to evade the NICS requirement, which can be up to 10 years per count.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I hate to contradict you

Go ahead, eveyone does.

 

[JohnBT]

I've been thinking about this. I don't see why I couldn't sell a bunch of guns for a friend AS LONG AS I'M NOT BEING PAID ANYTHING or GETTING ANYTHING OUT OF THE DEAL.

Let's look at ATF Online:

"B. UNLICENSED PERSONS

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]"

I wouldn't be 'selling' the guns, I'd just be acting for the owner.

(I figure I'd get a specific power of attorney for the purpose of the sale to cover myself. I'd also have the buyer(s) make the check(s) out to the owner.)

Let's say you're selling a car. Somebody calls about the ad and you ask me to drive it over and show it to them. I do it and bring your money back. Have I 'sold' the car?

Time to call my lawyer and get some more of his free legal advice...and see if he has the money he owes me.

John

 

[Preacherman]

John, you really believe the ATF will allow you to argue that you're not the actual seller, but only an agent, and therefore aren't breaking the law? If your actions in selling the weapons are in breach of applicable law, you're going down for it, irrespective of whether you're an agent or the principal in the deal. No ifs, buts or maybes.

 

[Windhover45]

A question that popped out at me is why the friend needs an intermediary at all? Why can't he sell the guns himself?

 

[trapperjohn]

A question that popped out at me is why the friend needs an intermediary at all? Why can't he sell the guns himself?

Mostly time, knowledge of their worth, technical knowledge, and knowing how to sell them. He is in another state, It would take Many hours for of bringing them out of storage, looking them over, cleaning etc, not to mention time shipping and finding buyers.

and yes, it was my intention to take a percentage or fee for helping him do all this. Maybe take some of the guns he wants to get rid of. It looks like i need to work something out with my local ffl so that he lists and sells them.

 

[Bear Gulch]

I think that would be wise Trapper. With the ATF even avoiding the appearance of impropriety is good idea. While I have alway found them good to work with.I also keep meticulous records.

 

[JohnBT]

"John, you really believe the ATF will allow you to argue that you're not the actual seller, but only an agent, and therefore aren't breaking the law?"

My initial response is still that an FFL is only required to operate a business.
_________________
"(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]"
__________________
They even make an exception for one type of auction. Note the last sentance...

"In estate-type auctions, the articles to be auctioned (including firearms) are being sold by the executor of the estate of an individual. In these cases the firearms belong to and are possessed by the executor. The auctioneer is acting as an agent of the executor and assisting the executor in finding buyers for the firearms. The firearms are controlled by the estate, and the sales of firearms are being made by the estate. In these cases, the auctioneer does not meet the definition of engaging in business as a dealer in firearms and would not need a license."
___________________

I'm still thinking on it and might have to resort to calling ATF out of laziness to avoid spending time researching it, but if I'm not operating a business (making any profit at all, etc.) it appears to me it would be legal.

Let's say my neighbor rents a table at a show to sell all of his guns. I go along to help and sell a gun for him while he's buying an RC Cola and a Moon Pie. Am I breaking the law? I'm legal, the seller is legal, the buyer is legal and I don't get a penny for my time. As I understand the law, an FFL is only required to operate a business. (On a similar note, if I take a friend's gun home and refinish the stock for free it's okay. If I charge for it then I need an FFL because I'm running a business.)

I know the government is gonna do what they want, or try anyway, because I've worked for the state government for 30 years. I also know that it is possible to butt heads with them and win if you're prepared and know the laws and regs.

I can't believe that selling a gun, or guns, for someone is a crime if you don't make anything out of the deal. The first time I ran across this was around 1960 when my uncle took my Fox Model B to work and sold it to a coworker and gave my dad all of the money. I've seen many similar deals in the years since the GCA was passed in '68 and never thought of the 'seller' as a gun dealer.

John...still thinking on it.