LEO Sharpshooter (Sniper) rifles

[Steve in PA]

Posting this on several board I frequent

I'm thinking of attending the NRA LEO Precison Rifle Instructor Course next year. I already did the Patrol Rifle Course (AR type rifle). I could use the AR (depts) and just mount a scope on it, or...

while visiting the local Gander Mt store, they had a Remington Model 70 VS .308 rifle, with a Redfield scope for about $800.00, a very, very nice rifle. So I began thinking of maybe getting a bolt action rifle. I checked the big three, Winchester, Remington and Savage and came up with these;

Winchester Model 70 Stealth MSRP $800.00
Remington Model 700 VS MSRP $811.00
Savage 10FP-LE2 MSRP $566.00

Caliber will be .308, the only difference I saw was the Win and Rem have a 1-12" twist, while the Savage has a 1-10" twist.

Now I have an older Model 70 I use for hunting and really like the Winny. Never owned a Remington, but they are supposed to have a god rep too. I have also heard the Savage rifles are a great bang for the buck, have a very good rep with people in the business....plus a few hundred dollars cheaper.

Any opinions??

 

[Mark Tyson]

If you get the savage, be prepared for a rather flimsy stock. It's still plenty accurate.

 

[uglygun]

I'd suggest avoiding buying new.

All of those rifles can be found for lower than MRSP if you hunt around a bit, finding them used is typically not a problem and they will generally be priced even below wholesale.

I bought my 300WinMag Remington 700 PSS for 600 dollars shipped with rings and bases back about 6 months ago, with only 100 rounds fired. A person on the snipercountry.com Duty Roster had 5 Remington 700 VS 308Winchesters all selling for 500 dollars shipped just about a week or two ago, those were supposedly new and he needed to clear out some stock.


Around town the local gunshop that carries the Remington 700 VS and PSS rifles wants a freaking mint for the stupid things at around 730-750 dollars before fees/taxes.

 

[warrior23]

Remington would my choice of the 3.The Savage is great outta box but I would get the 10fp with the Mcmillan a-2 stock and accu trigger.

 

[Steve in PA]

I did some searcing and read alot of good reviews on the Savage. I am looking at the LE2 model. I found it on Davidsons Gallery of Guns for around $475.00 from a dealer in my area. It doesn't have the McMillian stock but it does have a black synthetic with positive checkering, dual pillar bedding, heavy barrel and the accu-trigger.

 

[Jim K]

There is good reason to use the .300 Win Mag for its power and long range accuracy, but .308 has the advantage that it can use 7.62 NATO tracer, AP, and incendiary rounds which can provide an extra advantage in some situations.

Jim

 

[uglygun]

Eh, 7.62Nato AP is nothin compared to 300WinMag loaded with old 30-06 AP boolits... I've tested both some 150grn AP bullets as well as the 165grn AP bullets out of the 300WinMag, the 7.62Nato AP bullet is not of the same caliber as the older 165grn AP bullet(I suspect the 7.62Nato AP core is mild steel while the 165grn is Tungsten or an alloy thereof). Only exception would maybe be the new M993 load but I'll never get to see those things, interesting part is the construction of the M993 is closer to that of the 165grn 30-06AP round atleast it's core shape is(I've cross sectioned both the 150grn AP and the 165grn AP and compared to the M993 on the FAS.org site).


Only mentioned my PSS 300WinMag because 600 bucks delivered with mounts/rings is a pretty decent price for only 100 rounds fired.

Generally the PSS line carries a little bit of a premium due to the stock and the finish, the VS and Senderos generally go for a bit less as their a bit less hoopla generated by the sniper babies who worship all that is tactical.

Back when I was buying my rifle I didn't care if it was a PSS or a Sendero, I just wanted the barreled action and HS Precision style stock. If it had been a Sendero in 300WinMag I would have likely been just as happy paying 600 for it shipped to my dealer.


But I'm in no way recommending a 300WinMag, was just illustrating the deals out there on the used market. 308Win. definitely has it's advantages in terms of cost, recoil, and generally being more widely available.

 

[hksw]

If you get the savage, be prepared for a rather flimsy stock. It's still plenty accurate.

Unless you opt for the LE2A or LE2B, Choate or McMillan, respectively. A little more money, but well worth it IMO.

 

[4v50 Gary]

VSS is a good choice and would be mine if I weren't lazy. Otherwise, most LE snipers shoot at under 100 yards distance. The LTR is more portable being shorter, lighter, and more mission specific to the LEO sniper. Cost is about $795 (around here). I suggest that as option #4.

 

[HankL]

Just something that has become a point with me but the PSS desigination is folklore. To quote Remington, it is a

Model 700P

. I have one and it is a fun gun to shoot. It took some very basic tweeking out of the box to get me very happy with it. If you want to see what your Remington barrel might look like go To Lilja's Link Here and view their comparison. Hey, I still love my 700P.
Steve, I do think that you will do a good bit better than MSRP on a new rifle on any that you might pick. If you can work it out through your department you might be able to get into one of Remington's 40x rifles for just a bit more than what we have been talking about here. The instructor should have a fine rifle. Optics is another question. What Redfield was on that VS at Gander's?
If you are going through all of this training to instruct members of your department you do deserve some support. If your local authority can't provide it some of the manufacturers might.
As learning tools and most police marksman type scenarios the mentioned rifles will work just fine with little or no tweaking. No matter what, I would budget more to quite a bit more money for your scope, rings and bases.
If your department has flat top AR's then all you might need to do is invest in the glass and mounting hardware. Never done any of the NRA's LEO courses so I don't know what the ranges you might have to shoot might be but "Precision Rifle" implies good glass to me.
I ramble on:

I really don't like bolt action rifles but I will say. If Steve has a good need, because he is going throught all of the training I would be happy to provide him with some good bases or rings for his project.

 

[Onslaught]

If you get the savage, be prepared for a rather flimsy stock. It's still plenty accurate.

Somebody always mentions that every time a Savage is suggested, and it's absolutely true... BUT

Since you can replace the stock for as little as $90 (Bell & Carlson Duramaxx which B&C says they can't make fast enough) I don't know why we don't either mention both together, or say nothing... It's certainly not a negative sell point to buy a $479 rifle (my dealer's quoted price, and he said left handed was $10 more!) and have to buy a $90 stock right then... that is of course if you don't opt for the Choate or McMillian right off the bat... It's still less expensive and every bit as accurate as the $800 options.

BTW... dry fired the AccuTrigger yesterday... LOVE it!

 

[uglygun]

HankL, thanks for the lija link comparing the factory barrel to that of the hand lapped barrel.


Knew that barrels could get a bit rough from the factory, doing the solvent cleaning route certainly points out the differences between a smooth match barrel and a rough factory barrel.


As for the 700P versus PSS, I can't explain it. I used to see the rifles refered to as 700P series all the time and then back about 4-5 years ago more and more of the things started being referred to as the PSS. Doesn't help that I've seen both shops as well as distributors list the things as PSS rifles.

There were some 700P rifles out there long ago with 5R barrels and those are likely to be real gems in the way of a box stock Rem 700. Haven't heard much about them for a LONG time though and my fading memory seems to want to say that the PSS thing started off just as the 700P rifles with 5R barrels were fading away.


Remington did another run of stainless 700s back about a year ago with 5R barrels, I can't help but wonder what those barrels looked like. Sure they might have been 5R profile but I can't help but wonder if the tool chatter marks were evident in those barrels as well.

 

[Steve in PA]

The MSRP were pulled from the respective web sites......I don't plan on buying any rifle anywhere near those prices.

For the NRA Precision Rifle Course.......I think they say you'll be firing out to 200 yards......and they want the rifle/scope to be able to shoot a 5 shot 1 1/2" group at 100 yards. I know all those rifles I mentioned can do that. heck, my deer hunting rifle (Winchester Model 70XTR .30/06) will do that no problem.

Seems the Accutrigger is the rave. Read alot of articles on it tonight. One of the reasons I'm being pulled towards the Savage. For what i want it seems to be the logical choice. But I'm still looking at the others.

Anyone know why the different barrel twist rate 1-10" for the Savage and 1-12" for the Winchester and Remington??

 

[HankL]

Steve, you can spin a 180 grain a bit better in the 1:10 and 190 will shine. The 1:12 is a little more easy on the 168's. Using a 200 yd. course a decent AR and scope should get you where you need to be.
The Savage Accutrigger is not it's only strong point, it seems to be as good a rifle as any in the bunch being discussed. The Winchester trigger is very easy to smith, the Remington trigger is usually no problem at all.
Steve, if you could borrow a reloading manual, there should be a pretty good explanation about barrel twist versus bullet weight in it.

 

[dbshabo]

I just bought a Savage 10FP-LE2B in .308, the one with the McMillan A2 stock. I paid $718.00 from a local dealer. The Remy 700 VS cost that without the McMillan.

This is my first precision bolt gun so I don't have any experience other than a few shots thru other peoples rifles at the range. I do however know a sweet trigger when I pull one and the AccuTrigger is sweet!! I need to tweak mine down about 1/2 lb. The McMillan stock is great also, it fits my body well. Outta the box with Aussie surplus ammo after I got my scope tweaked in I was printing 2" - 3" 5 shot groups at 200 yds. I'm sure that this rifle will shoot better than I can. I can't wait to try some match grade ammo thru this thing. The surplus was 147 grain stuff. As was mentioned above I think a heavier bullet will shine in this thing. It has dual pillar bedding and a free floated barrel. I am very pleased with this rifle and look forward to getting more range time with it. It is a heavy beast though.

I looked at Remy 700 VS, CZ Varmint Laminated, and Winchester 70 before I bought the Savage. Heard and read too many flattering reports on the gun to not give it a try. Glad I did. Most people recommended the Remy however simply because any competent smith can work on them. My smith said if it's metal formed into a firearm he can work on it.

Good luck with whatever you end up with.

Shabo

 

[4v50 Gary]

The Remy with the 5R bbl was a limited run with surplus bbls. Someone at a Sniper site was selling one recently.

 

[skunyun]

The 5r rifling on the remmy 700 does not say anywhere 700p.

The box states Remington model 700 stainless .308 special 5R Milspec barrel.

I went to the local gunshop recently to get the PSS and low and behold he asked if I knew what the M24 was , I says yep, so he ordered me to one above , I was told it was the same as the m24 except the stock .
So, there is no P, or Pss anywhere on rifle or box, I haven't made it to the range yet, But what I have been told it should be one heck of a tack driver, If I do my part.

It is very hard to find any info on this paricular rifle, Remington Told me it was a special run and not many were produced.

 

[Quack]

(copied from Sniper's Hide Forum)
for sale on AR15.COM
from www.eaglefirearms.net

Remington 700 5R SS .308 $829
NIB with 24" SS Milspec 5R barrel, SS action, synthetic stock. Very limited production & hard to find. These are basically a Remington 700 Sendero Stainless with the addition of a milspec US Army M24 sniper rifle heavy barrel. Remington had about 300 extra M24 barrels from a military production run & they installed these barrels on these limited edition rifles. This is the only way to get a factory 5R rifle unless you want to pay $3K + for a factory M24.

I just did an internet search on the M24 & found the following info on the 5R rifle barrel: "The barrel of the M24 is unique. Remington hammerforges the barrel with 416R stainless steel, the bull barrel is 24" long, and its width tapers down from 1.2" at the breech to approximately .9". The 5-R rifling was designed by Boots Overmeyer, is angled at 110 degrees, has 5 grooves, and a right hand twist of 1" in 11.2". There are a number of advantages for the military marksman with this barrel. The angled rifling leads to less bullet deformation as the rifling swages it. Some believe that this results in a more even pressure curve as the bullet accelerates through the barrel. As well, once the barrel is broken in, the rifling lends itself to reduced metallic fouling; a longer, more accurate lifespan because of reduced wear effect on rifling cross-section, and higher bullet velocities. The downsides to 5-R rifling are the greater than normal metallic fouling of the bore during the break-in period, and greater difficulty in barrel production, resulting in a more expensive barrel.

After final shoot-off between Steyr SSG rifle and Remington model 700BDL, the latest was standartized in 1987 as a US Army's Model 24 sniper rifle. The M24 has a 24" (609mm) stainless-steel barrel, with a bore specially cut for the M118 7.62mm NATO Match Grade ammunition. The barrel was rifled with a special Remington- developed rifling, called 5R. It had five lands and grooves that make one turn in 11 1/4" (286mm), and the edges of the lands were sligthly rounded to reduce friction.

Remington 700 PSS .300 Win Mag $699
NIB with 26" heavy barrel, matte black finish & synthetic stock.

 

[uglygun]

Not to be an *** but I did state in my post that there USED to be a time when a Remington 700 P could be had with the 5R barrel, that time is long gone from what I can tell. Talking about rifles that are on the order of 7+ years old probably. Occasionally you'll hear people making mention of these older P models on places like the Snipercountry.com Duty Roster as well as other places, rarely do they come up for sale because they tend to shoot so well.


But just for sake of mentioning them, I also stated that a run of stainless Rem 700s were done with a 5R barrel. Like skunyun elaborated, they don't have the P or PSS labeling(ignoring that whole tangled rats nest) nor is the stock of same design but the stainless guns with the 5R barrel have something close enough with the VS stock design.

Yes, the 5R stainless guns are a special run. No, they aren't a P or PSS, I never tried to suggest that they were. But they do share something to MUCH older 700P rifles, that's the 5R barrel and the thing that should make them pretty special for anyone who's followed where the Remington 5R barrels wind up(M24 rifles for the Army as well as some Knights SR25s).


As for the special 5R rifling and where it was developed, I highly doubt Remington is responsible for it. The radiused corners of the rifling have been used by Boots Obermyer and I believe it's history is traced to a Russian rifling profile if one goes back far enough. Remington may have been the first to hammer forge the 5R profile though, not sure if Boots Oberymer was doing cut rifling profile or hammer forging. I'm not a barrel maker but there are some old posts on the Snipercountry.com Duty Roster about the 5R profiles and by those who understand it better than I. Mike Rock was another supplier of 5R type barrels, those saw use on some AR10 Ts for a brief period as the guns were just getting kicked out.

 

[Quack]

oop's i didn't see the that part, i just copied the post. the "R", from other places i've read is for Russian.

 

[HankL]

Just to throw a little more fat into the fire Mine must be a Model 700 Police 5*

Steve, The Savage 10FP-LE2B sounds like a deal to me. If I were in the market that's where I would be looking very hard. Remember the glass, ring and mounts.

 

[jrhead75]

I'm picking up my 10FP/Leupold combo tomorrow. I'll let ya know.

 

[Onslaught]

I just laid down my $500 on a Savage 10 FLP (left handed 10FP) today We lefties only get 1 choice in the 10FP... 24" bbl, factory stock.

Out of the 4 wholesalers my dealer looked at, only 1 had any in stock, and that place only had two left!

 

[dbshabo]

If you're gonna get a Remington Steve be aware that the action in the 700 PSS is EXACTLY the same action as is put in all other 700 models.

Shabo

 

[DeBee]

If you like the Winchesters, you might consider the FN A series of rifles coming out of South Carolina- it's a tighter fitting short Classic action with a chrome lined barrel and proportedly shoots tiny groups. I've handled two and they are sweet- haven't shot one yet... I'd like to see FN turn down a 20" chrome lined barrel to sporter diameter and fit it to a sporter like stock with aluminum bedding block with hinged floorplate...