LEO training question

[Deanimator]

As far as budgetary constraints, is it possible for departments to outsource to private instructors? Officers could be given vouchers for ammo and fuel costs as an incentive.

Actually, there was an article in either American Handgunner or Guns once about a private shooting consultant hired by the NYPD after their payouts on wrongful death suits by bystanders got to be intolerable. I think this was in the early '70s. I recall him saying that the biggest problem he ran into was cops not using the front sight.

Actually, one way to get cops to shoot would be rewarding them for above average performance in IDPA or other pistol matches. A verified score in recognized competition could earn them a bonus, time off, or some other reward. They'd get training often better than what a department provides, and local competitions would be bolstered.

 

[308win]

Seems to me that Glen B's orginal post about costs and logistics to deliver training is a good argument for privatizing the firearms training. A private concern could deliver training to conform to department policy just as well as department training resources.

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

I can not vouch for the accuracy of this document so take it for what it's worth:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

 

[Stretchman]

When I was a Security Officer ( try not to laugh ) we had to qualify every year. normally shot like, 238/240, or pretty close. Never got the perfect score.

I used to go shooting at least once a month. Save some money and hit the range instead of the bar. I got pretty good. What I saw out there....

No names, but...

One officer had a .38 revolver that was so corroded, we had to use wd-40 we gleep from the client's cleaning closet to free it. he promises to check the weapon daily. Probably never came out of his holster for a year.

Several highly qualified officers cannot hit the targets at all in a move and shoot competition. The score in the low 20s-40s, and when queried, we are told they had never before fired their duty weapons. One officer had carried his revolver for almost 10 years, and didn't ever qual with it. Just got that puppy pencil whipped.

Out of 7 security officer involved shootings in this state, from what I could gather, there were only 2 that happened with licensed officers. The others were carrying without a ticket. No arrests were ever made. Both officers and civilians were shot. Nobody checked on licensing.

The most qualified officer I ever met when it came to firearms was the tallest tale teller in the history of the known universe. He could shoot the X out of the bullseye offhand while eating a sandwich. The guy was good, and he knew gear better than anyone I have ever met. even though he was total BS, he never failed to back me up on a call, until the last night we worked together. learned groups from him.

Me, i used to shake in 1989 when I started out as an unarmed officer. I was petrified. Couldn't look at a handgun, but then, I'd been thorugh some trauma. Slowly but surely I conquered my fear, began reading, practicing, and got proficient in firearms and their usage. best thing to do is range time, and reading, like the gun rags, and this board. Practice makes perfect. No one starts out that way.

And as far as the cops not being able to shoot? Well, you have to know cops. They probably were out there getting hammered, sweeping each other, making goofs of themselves. Hard to explain, unless you've worked with them. Can they really shoot? Do you feel lucky?

 

[LiquidTension]

Training at my department consists of qualifying once per year. We shoot off our old duty ammo during practice, run through the night firing practice (with cheap reloads), shoot the course for score, then shoot the night firing portion for score. That's it. No real training other than arrest scenarios that may or may not involve using your sidearm at all. Supposedly we can get practice ammo through the department, but nobody in my county has seen any. I've gotten the ball rolling on that though, hopefully we'll see some ammo soon.

 

[oldcop1971]

Too True...

most cops around here qualify once a year and hardly ever train. Get the 70% passing score and worry about it again next year. I saw a deputy with a Safariland triple-retintion holster take 2 hands and 36 seconds to get his weapon out. on the range, no stress. but someone told him it was a secure holster!! was talking to a SRO (school resource officer) last nite who said he never carries a gun off duty. qualify once a year and he's responsible for an elementary and high school with ~800 students.....i try to shoot as much as possible, but it's still woefully little. thank God i had good instructors in 72 and have been shooting for 36 years. even getting older and shakier i regularlly out shoot the young'uns around here. sure, cops are rarely involved in real shootings, but we need to be more than marginally sufficient with tools capable of deadly force.

 

[Jack A. Sol]

Most gun owners should have more training than cops. cops are limited by thier department regulations to some extent, but the civilians are not and are actually the real deterrence to attack in the US.
if you are not attending training classes at least 2 times a year and some sort of match at least 2 times a year, then you are slackingand need to turn in your guns or sell some to pay for training.

Your guns dont do no good if you suck at shooting (and i aint talking about target shooting or hunting either)

 

[Torchman]

This is the Coast Guard Practical Pistol Course, shot every 6 months, along with classroom and Judgemental Shooting. Everything is from your duty holster, and I think its a good test. Qual is 45 out of 50, anything inside the 4 on a standard silhouete target. We recently shifted from the M-9 to the SIG 229 DAK, so this course is only about a year old.

11. Course of Fire.
NOTE: This course is to be shot using four 12 round magazines with 2 loose rounds in
the shooter’s pocket for a total of 50 rounds.
Phase Stage String
Phase 1
3-Yard Line
1. 1. Close
Quarter to
2. Strong Hand
Supported
(1 mag 12 rds)
3 rds in 5 sec
3 rds in 5 sec
1. Reaction Hand Unsupported
(sighted in on target)
3 rds in 5 sec
2. Strong Hand Supported
with a Magazine Change
(1 mag 12 rds)
4 rds in 12 sec
(fire 3rounds
reload
fire 4th round)
Phase 2
7-Yard Line
3. Strong Hand Unsupported
2 rds in 3 sec
2 rds in 3 sec
1. Strong Side High Barricade
Tactical Load
(1 mag 12 rds)
Reaction Side High Barricade
12 rds in 30 sec
(6 rds strong side)
(6 rds reaction side)
{tac mag will be empty
with a round in chamber}
Phase 3
17-Yard Line
Kneeling Low Barricade
*admin reload of 2 rounds to weapon
after holstering*
6 rds in 15 sec
Ordnance Manual Enclosure
(4) PPC Prefire
3. Kneeling Low Side Barricade
Magazine & Position Change
Strong Side High Barricade
Reaction Side High Barricade
(1 mag 12 rds)
15 rds in 45 sec
(3 rds kneeling position)
(6 rds strong side)
(6 rds reaction

 

[DontBurnMyFlag]

my training in the academy was extensive, however it did not cover nearly enough. we did not have to draw and fire while moving or anything of that nature. there were several stages in which we ran from target to target engaging in different positions and whatnot.

the requalification takes place every 6 months and just serves to show an officers general competency with their duty weapon.

I, on the other hand, make it to the range every two weeks. I practice from self defense ranges, both eyes open, double taps, retention firing etc. I also take my time and assure myself I still have accuracy at the 25 yard range as well.

I know more officers than not, who train themselves or seek professional training outside of the department mandated weapons qualifications.

 

[Nil]

Would ammo be tax deductible for police officers? It seems like it could be classified as a job-related training expense.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

most cops shoot only when their department:

1. supplies the ammunition
2. gives them orders to go the range
3. pays them to go to the range to shoot

translated, in Texas, that requirement is statutory once per year per TCLEOSE guidelines. couple that with the current ammo shortage, and it may not even be once every 12 months.

unfortunately, many regular (i.e. not tactical team guys) officers only shoot when they are required or mandated to do so by their agency. that usually translates to lack of target practice (a perishable skill) coupled with bad habits that haven't been broken.

fortunately the average LE officer-involved shooting is less than 7 yards. given the fact that it doesn't mean the officer may survive that gunfight, at least if they can hit a man-sized target at that distance, then, they may actually live to talk about it.

 

[strambo]

cops are limited by thier department regulations to some extent

Not at all since you are comparing them to "civilians". A typical "civilian" job is 100% limited in firearms training...there is none. So, all training is outside of work.

There is no reason in the world why the average LEO should shoot worse than the average non-LEO gun owner. A glass-half-full person would look at any department training as cost free, paid, extra training they get above and beyond what a citizen does all by themselves.

I'd love to have a job pay for any amount of firearms training, even if "only" 8 hrs per year. So, I'm starting my own business and will pay myself to attend such training since it will be related!

LEOs can get tax deductions for training and equipment (to include gun purchases) as well...another benefit they have financially over the typical non-LEO shooter.

Bottom line, there are no excuses...but hey it's their life (well maybe some citizen dependent on them/bystander).

 

[sacp81170a]

Would ammo be tax deductible for police officers? It seems like it could be classified as a job-related training expense.

I've claimed mine as a training expense every year so far...

 

[LiquidTension]

Sure, you could deduct ammo - but it doesn't help me. I take the standard deduction as it's much more than my itemized expenses. If I could deduct ALL of my firearms related expenses it would be worth it, but for just .40 it's not even close.

Here's a funny thing about my department: We're required to maintain proficiency with our sidearms. We are only supposed to shoot department supplied ammo through department issued guns. The department doesn't supply practice ammo. So, technically, the only time you're allowed to shoot your gun is when you qualify. Nice, huh? Thankfully they don't enforce the "our ammo only" rule.

 

[sacp81170a]

Thankfully they don't enforce the "our ammo only" rule.

Ahh, grasshopper, the reason for any rule that's systematically ignored in a beauracracy is to cover the management's butt in case you happen to have an accident. If you're using your own ammo and something bad happens, the department can disclaim any responsibility. Rules aren't for your protection, they're to satisify the need to shift responsibility.

 

[LiquidTension]

Oh, I'm aware of Policy #698 - CYA. The only purpose it's served so far is to get some movement on the department supplied ammo front.

 

[glummer]

Be careful what you wish for

Jack

if you are not attending training classes at least 2 times a year and some sort of match at least 2 times a year, then you are slackingand need to turn in your guns …

Did you hear about the new Schumer/Feinstein Handgun Proficiency & Safety Bill?
If you are not attending training classes at least 2 times a year and some sort of match at least 2 times a year, then you need to turn in your guns to the BATFE.
They want you to come to Washington to testify for it. What do you say?

 

[pohill]

I went through the Academy in 1987. On the range, they told us that the average cop scores 96% - in real life, that drops down to 18%. With that in mind, I have to chuckle when I'm at the range and non-cops are dumping over the cop's shooting ability (when the cops aren't there, by the way). It's one thing to sit at a bench on a nice sunny day and fire at paper targets and gloat over your shooting ability...
As another poster said, it's more important knowing when not to shoot, or how to diffuse a situation without drawing your handgun. One of my sergeants was in a situation where he had to shoot a guy in the head with a .357. The guy gave him no choice, as he was about to kill his wife. A few years later, this same sergeant faced a man armed with a knife. He had every justificatin to shoot this guy, too, but he didn't - he disarmed him with his hands. He was awarded the Medal of Honor for the second incident.
Shooting skills are very important, of course, but I think what's even more important is being able to handle the adrenaline rush that comes with any violent situation. And that's something that takes time. So that overweight aging cop that has to draw his weapon has a distinct advantage over that young hotshot who scores high on the range - the old guy knows how to keep his cool.

 

[Pilgrim]

I've claimed mine as a training expense every year so far...

To be safe, I suggest you keep a log of your training with such info as courses of fire, ammo expended, and pictures of your targets.

Pilgrim

 

[308win]

To be safe, I suggest you keep a log of your training with such info as courses of fire, ammo expended, and pictures of your targets.

The IRS will not allow hobby expenses as deductions. If I were an IRS Agent having a bad day I would allow only those expenses for which you had department authorization; if I were having a good day I would allow those expenses you incurred practicing with your duty weapon(s); and, if you got lucky and I didn't look at your employee expenses you could potentially get away with whatever you claimed.

 

[Rexster]

I work for a once-a-year qual agency, though things are looking up. Our last in-service training cycle included a few hours of classroom and then live-fire draw-and-shoot in dim light using the "Stressfire" method, the the next training cycle will include a full day of active shooter using Simunitions guns. There have been some really good elective classes offered over the years, but getting signed up has always been difficult, with demand exceeding the number of available slots. I have sought outside training, including SouthNarc's ECQC and the Snubby Summit, where I sampled instruction from several nationally-known trainers, though the only live-fire I attended there was a class by Michael DeBethancourt. Other guys I work with shoot competition from IDPA to IPSC to three-gun action shooting and even cowboy action shooting, though the latter is usually comically far removed from relevance to survival on the street.

 

[Rexster]

I work for a once-a-year qual agency, though things are looking up. Our last in-service training cycle included a few hours of classroom and then live-fire draw-and-shoot in dim light using the "Stressfire" method. The next training cycle will include a full day of active shooter using Simunitions guns. There have been some really good elective classes offered over the years, but getting signed up has always been difficult, with demand exceeding the number of available slots. I have sought outside training, including SouthNarc's ECQC and the Snubby Summit, where I sampled instruction from several nationally-known trainers, though the only live-fire I attended there was a class by Michael DeBethancourt. Other guys I work with shoot competition from IDPA to IPSC to three-gun action shooting and even cowboy action shooting, though the latter is usually comically far removed from relevance to survival on the street.