about people with CCW? I have 2 LEO's that I'm good friends with. 1 has no problems with it while the other says he would prefer that people not carry. If you pull someone over, are you generally favorable to a person with a CCW or treat them differently? Thanks.
LEO's--how do you really feel
- Thread starter Mayo
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It is all about the behavior of the person. If you act like a decent and considerate human being you tend to get treated one way. If you act like a jackass or a whack job you tend to get treated another. Overall, I could care less. I have had many a "quick" traffic stop end up in a twenty minute discussion on cool guns, places to hunt or shoot and other things.
Well, I haven't been pulled over since I got my CCW, but before I did I always got my license, Reg. and insurance out, rolled down the window, turned on the dome light and put my hands at 10 and 2.
My point however is do you treat them differently knowing they have a
concealed weapon on them before you approach?
My point however is do you treat them differently knowing they have a
concealed weapon on them before you approach?
stevelyn
Member
I couldn't care less and believe people should carry whatever they wish. The one's I've stopped that have presented a CHL to me, I've cut loose with a warning simply because as a CHL holder they're responsible citizens and a citation is unnecessary to get them to comply.
A lot is to be said about the attitude check, as I don't believe in using traffic enforcement to extort revenue for govt. Good attitude will get you a warning. Being confrontational and acting like an honor graduate from the Outhouse University School of Law and I'll get writers cramp from the cites you'll be issued.
LE is a 95-5 proposition. IOW we deal with about 5% of the population about 95% of the time. Those 5% are the frequent fliers and problem children.
Other than the occassional first time DUIs we generally don't have much contact with the rest of the population.
A lot is to be said about the attitude check, as I don't believe in using traffic enforcement to extort revenue for govt. Good attitude will get you a warning. Being confrontational and acting like an honor graduate from the Outhouse University School of Law and I'll get writers cramp from the cites you'll be issued.
LE is a 95-5 proposition. IOW we deal with about 5% of the population about 95% of the time. Those 5% are the frequent fliers and problem children.
Other than the occassional first time DUIs we generally don't have much contact with the rest of the population.
Fed168
Member
It's a good thing. Everyone I have had business dealings with has been forthcoming in the fact that they are carrying. I like to see folks who believe in self preservation. And we chat about guns, etc as well.
nyresq
Member
As a LEO I fully support citizens with concieled handguns as long as they are willing to get some training in the proper use and handling of firearms as it relates to concieled carry.
Along that same line I do have a problem and its not as a LEO, its as a regular joe on the street.
my problem is with the fact that you send away $50 and two months later can strap on a hogleg and go struttin around looking for the oppertunity to be a hero and stop a hold up at the local 7-11, or to go looking for a fight at the local Bar cause you know you got "some backup" tucked under your "armed and dangerous" T-shirt. If you don't think it happens, believe me it does, and when some idiot jumps into something and screws the pooch, thats the one the media blasts all over the TV and front page... They never show the good citizen who holds the mugger down while waiting for the cops, or the one who stops the home invasion with his grampa's .38, that doesn't make good headlines and doesn't feed the anti gun liberals who want to outlaw guns.
The wackos are not the majority, or even a large percentage, but in all seriousness how many people out there with a ccw permit have had ANY formal training and I don't mean the stupid 8 hours in a class room so I can get my permit BS? That percentage is going to be very, very small.
There are very few "shall issue" states that mandate any kind of training to get a ccw permit and the ones that do offer up some joke of a class and send people on their way. Even the states that make it incredibly hard to get a permit (NY,NJ etc) don't have any requirements once you get through the red tape phase of the process.
Leo's in every agency from federal and state, to the local podunk police force send their officers through days and weeks of firearms training to allow them to carry a gun. The law has nothing to do with firearms training. Sending rounds down range has nothing to do with the decision to take a life or the legal justification that has to be questioned before doing so. firearms training only teaches proper firearms handling and procedures.
I am sure to start a flame war,
but my opinion as a citizen and as a LEO is that I don't think $50 or $100 and being able to properly fill out the paperwork should be the only requirements to carry a handgun in public.
Yes, everyone has a right to defend themselves, but not while placing my life in danger while doing so because you can't handle your weapon in a proper manner.
fire at will
Along that same line I do have a problem and its not as a LEO, its as a regular joe on the street.
my problem is with the fact that you send away $50 and two months later can strap on a hogleg and go struttin around looking for the oppertunity to be a hero and stop a hold up at the local 7-11, or to go looking for a fight at the local Bar cause you know you got "some backup" tucked under your "armed and dangerous" T-shirt. If you don't think it happens, believe me it does, and when some idiot jumps into something and screws the pooch, thats the one the media blasts all over the TV and front page... They never show the good citizen who holds the mugger down while waiting for the cops, or the one who stops the home invasion with his grampa's .38, that doesn't make good headlines and doesn't feed the anti gun liberals who want to outlaw guns.
The wackos are not the majority, or even a large percentage, but in all seriousness how many people out there with a ccw permit have had ANY formal training and I don't mean the stupid 8 hours in a class room so I can get my permit BS? That percentage is going to be very, very small.
There are very few "shall issue" states that mandate any kind of training to get a ccw permit and the ones that do offer up some joke of a class and send people on their way. Even the states that make it incredibly hard to get a permit (NY,NJ etc) don't have any requirements once you get through the red tape phase of the process.
Leo's in every agency from federal and state, to the local podunk police force send their officers through days and weeks of firearms training to allow them to carry a gun. The law has nothing to do with firearms training. Sending rounds down range has nothing to do with the decision to take a life or the legal justification that has to be questioned before doing so. firearms training only teaches proper firearms handling and procedures.
I am sure to start a flame war,
but my opinion as a citizen and as a LEO is that I don't think $50 or $100 and being able to properly fill out the paperwork should be the only requirements to carry a handgun in public.Yes, everyone has a right to defend themselves, but not while placing my life in danger while doing so because you can't handle your weapon in a proper manner.
fire at will
hwp
Member
I have to be honest and say that the above post sounds exactly like what I would expect from a NY police officer.
I left police work for greener pastures 4 years ago but I never met another officer at my dept. that had a problem with ccw. Then again I didn't work in the northeast.
I left police work for greener pastures 4 years ago but I never met another officer at my dept. that had a problem with ccw. Then again I didn't work in the northeast.
Boogyman
Member
I had a CCW when I lived in Washington State and the two times I was pulled over I was asked to get out of my vehicle and allow the officer to remove my weapon from my holster. Then I was detained for about 45 minutes while the officer ran every check in the book on me and my weapon. They then reluctantly returned my pistol when they couldn't find anything else to hassle me with.
When I moved to this small town in Missouri they didn't have permits here until last year. When I applied for mine our County Sherriff bent over backwards to help me every way he could to assure that I got my permit no problem, to the point of recommending an NRA Practical class taught by his brother at a reduced fee. He encourages everyone in his jurisdiction to get their CCW and to carry a weapon. Our county has the lowest crime rate in the state.
When I moved to this small town in Missouri they didn't have permits here until last year. When I applied for mine our County Sherriff bent over backwards to help me every way he could to assure that I got my permit no problem, to the point of recommending an NRA Practical class taught by his brother at a reduced fee. He encourages everyone in his jurisdiction to get their CCW and to carry a weapon. Our county has the lowest crime rate in the state.
nyresq
Member
haven't been a NY cop since 1998..... been in federal law enforcement since dec 1998... CITP 901 for those in the know... aside from that I can't be more specific. still work in ny though and have traveled all over this country and several overseas in an official capacity.
I have no problem with citizens CCW, but I don't think a check and some paperwork, that may or may not have even been filled out by them, proves they are responsible enough to carry a gun in public. go get some training and take what they teach you and use it to hone your skill with a pistol. I see far too many people in gun stores that bring in guns and ask the guy behind the counter how to unload it with out pulling the trigger, or whats the best way to carry it, or is this revolver safe with the hammer cocked back etc etc etc..... I saw a man walk in the other day with an empty 9mm ammo box and tell the man behind the counter "I need another box of these..." the saleman told the box holder he didn't carry that brand (norma) but had some federal in the same weight. The clueless wonder then said "well, are those the right bullets for my gun????" and before you question if he was refering to the gr weight, no.. he didn't know what caliber his pistol was, he only knew that the place where he bought it sold him a box of bullets at the same time and he just always got the same ones.... this idiot showed his carry license (full carry, no restrictions guy was a lawyer who had a few friends in police HQ pistol section), paid his money and walked out the door with his box of bullets.
yea, he makes the streets safer cause he has a gun under his jacket...
I have no problem with citizens CCW, but I don't think a check and some paperwork, that may or may not have even been filled out by them, proves they are responsible enough to carry a gun in public. go get some training and take what they teach you and use it to hone your skill with a pistol. I see far too many people in gun stores that bring in guns and ask the guy behind the counter how to unload it with out pulling the trigger, or whats the best way to carry it, or is this revolver safe with the hammer cocked back etc etc etc..... I saw a man walk in the other day with an empty 9mm ammo box and tell the man behind the counter "I need another box of these..." the saleman told the box holder he didn't carry that brand (norma) but had some federal in the same weight. The clueless wonder then said "well, are those the right bullets for my gun????" and before you question if he was refering to the gr weight, no.. he didn't know what caliber his pistol was, he only knew that the place where he bought it sold him a box of bullets at the same time and he just always got the same ones.... this idiot showed his carry license (full carry, no restrictions guy was a lawyer who had a few friends in police HQ pistol section), paid his money and walked out the door with his box of bullets.
yea, he makes the streets safer cause he has a gun under his jacket...
IndianaDean
Member
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- Jul 30, 2004
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- 541
I took a couple of different courses from instructors who are LEOs when I first got my ccw. I'm very glad I did too. Because there are alot of things that can happen that can trip up an untrained ccw'er. I recommend folks get as much training as they can afford.
swampsniper
Member
I have a retired NYC cop as a friend. Several years ago, he asked me what the best home defense shotgun was. In talking with this guy, it became obvious that he knew less about guns and gun handling than my 13 year old grandson does. He knows more now, most of it learned from my grandson and I.
I wonder how many NYC cops can go out with an iron sighted .22, and consistently make head shots on squirrels. The kids around here make fun of people that mess up good meat with body shots.
Maybe some folks need long courses of training, but others get well trained, by beginning not long after they are weaned.
Out here where I live there is not a house that is not armed. People push their lawnmowers with a pistol on their belt, you don't want to hit a cottonmouth with the mower, you never know which side the head is coming out on. For some reason, no one gets careless, no one gets crazy.
It is too bad you have a lot of problems with misuse of guns in NYC. Maybe you just have more crazy people there.
I have no problem with whatever y'all want to do up there, but every time I turn around, some New Yorker, or some Canadian, and now, even some Mexicans, are whining because no one else meets their standards for being "allowed" freedom. I sure do get tired of all that whining!
I wonder how many NYC cops can go out with an iron sighted .22, and consistently make head shots on squirrels. The kids around here make fun of people that mess up good meat with body shots.
Maybe some folks need long courses of training, but others get well trained, by beginning not long after they are weaned.
Out here where I live there is not a house that is not armed. People push their lawnmowers with a pistol on their belt, you don't want to hit a cottonmouth with the mower, you never know which side the head is coming out on. For some reason, no one gets careless, no one gets crazy.
It is too bad you have a lot of problems with misuse of guns in NYC. Maybe you just have more crazy people there.
I have no problem with whatever y'all want to do up there, but every time I turn around, some New Yorker, or some Canadian, and now, even some Mexicans, are whining because no one else meets their standards for being "allowed" freedom. I sure do get tired of all that whining!
Boogyman said:
I agree.
In the state of WA, if you EVER get pulled over.. you will be given a citation (100% on highways). I have not been pulled over since I got my CCW, but the few times I have been pulled over (for even going a few mph over), they'll find something to get you for. And please, for the people that are getting ahead of themselves and think it's something that's character or attitude related, its not. I'm one of the most modest guys I know and everyone else I know of that lives in this state has similar experiences (unless they're a hot blonde chick of course)..
I do not know what kind of pressure WA LEO's are under, but whatever it is.. it's messed them up.
Hmmmm.
I've been pulled over *mumbletymummblemumble* times here in WA, and haven't had a ticket in years. Fact is, last time I got pulled over (speeding, again, dangit, I do try but when I get daydreaming my foot lives a life of its own...) where was I? Oh yeah. Got pulled over, after dark. Pulled off, turned my dome light on, got the window down, shut the engine, tossed wallet on dash and put hands on steering wheel. Up comes officer. Apologized straight up for speeding. He asked for license & registration & insurance. I very slowly picked up wallet, handed him license & CPL. He barely glanced at CPL. I said, the registration & insurance are in glove box, okay to have the kid in passenger seat dig 'em out? He agreed, kid produced the paperwork after much digging. Officer looked at names on paperwork, noted that they matched the name on the driver's license, told me to slow down and have a good evening. End of story.
Not an unusual encounter. Past ten years or so ...
Husband got pulled over for a busted tail light. Had a good visit with officer.
I got pulled over for "swerving" -- officer thought I might be drunk. (Hadn't had a drink in I dunno how long before that, years though.) Pretty well just glanced in the window, did the routine above, commented that he could tell I hadn't been drinking, and told me to drive safe now. Again, no visible reaction to CPL but he did relax slightly.
Husband got pulled over for a busted tail light. (Different vehicle.) Officer told him the deal and that was all.
I got pulled over for speeding. Apologized as officer came up to the window. Kid in the back seat, then age 3, started fussying/worrying about mommy going to jail. I said, "excuse me officer," turned to the kid and said, "mommy's not going to go to jail. The officer is just telling me that I should not have been driving so fast. He might give me a piece of paper that says I have to pay a special tax because I broke the speed limit, but he doesn't like to put people in jail unless they deserve it. I was speeding, so I deserve to have to pay so I won't do it again, but the officer is a good officer so he won't put anyone in jail." Officer said, "That's right, ma'am. You drive more carefully now." End of story.
Worst one I know of was when I was riding in the van with a friend driving. He got pulled over for a busted tail light (NO, not the same one. We're just good at this stuff, k?) Officer came up to the window. Buddy handed out driver's license & CPL. Officer wanted to take control of the gun, no big deal, his perogative. But in doing so, he swept me. GRRRR. I ducked, he apologized, he took the gun back to his car to do whatever. Officer was plainly much relieved to have control of that gun. Funny thing was, every other adult in the vehicle was armed, and he was relieved because he'd just gotten the firearm away from the only person for whom he had positive ID. Uh, no ticket then, either.
I did get a ticket 9 or maybe 10 years back, when we first moved here. Pretty sure I flunked the attitude test on that one. Not intentionally, but I was about to bust my bladder (which was why I was speeding home) and so I'm sure I wasn't pleasant & relaxed and officer figured something wasn't right. *shrug* Had it coming to me, because I was speeding. They don't have to let you off!
pax
I've been pulled over *mumbletymummblemumble* times here in WA, and haven't had a ticket in years. Fact is, last time I got pulled over (speeding, again, dangit, I do try but when I get daydreaming my foot lives a life of its own...) where was I? Oh yeah. Got pulled over, after dark. Pulled off, turned my dome light on, got the window down, shut the engine, tossed wallet on dash and put hands on steering wheel. Up comes officer. Apologized straight up for speeding. He asked for license & registration & insurance. I very slowly picked up wallet, handed him license & CPL. He barely glanced at CPL. I said, the registration & insurance are in glove box, okay to have the kid in passenger seat dig 'em out? He agreed, kid produced the paperwork after much digging. Officer looked at names on paperwork, noted that they matched the name on the driver's license, told me to slow down and have a good evening. End of story.
Not an unusual encounter. Past ten years or so ...
Husband got pulled over for a busted tail light. Had a good visit with officer.
I got pulled over for "swerving" -- officer thought I might be drunk. (Hadn't had a drink in I dunno how long before that, years though.) Pretty well just glanced in the window, did the routine above, commented that he could tell I hadn't been drinking, and told me to drive safe now. Again, no visible reaction to CPL but he did relax slightly.
Husband got pulled over for a busted tail light. (Different vehicle.) Officer told him the deal and that was all.
I got pulled over for speeding. Apologized as officer came up to the window. Kid in the back seat, then age 3, started fussying/worrying about mommy going to jail. I said, "excuse me officer," turned to the kid and said, "mommy's not going to go to jail. The officer is just telling me that I should not have been driving so fast. He might give me a piece of paper that says I have to pay a special tax because I broke the speed limit, but he doesn't like to put people in jail unless they deserve it. I was speeding, so I deserve to have to pay so I won't do it again, but the officer is a good officer so he won't put anyone in jail." Officer said, "That's right, ma'am. You drive more carefully now." End of story.
Worst one I know of was when I was riding in the van with a friend driving. He got pulled over for a busted tail light (NO, not the same one. We're just good at this stuff, k?) Officer came up to the window. Buddy handed out driver's license & CPL. Officer wanted to take control of the gun, no big deal, his perogative. But in doing so, he swept me. GRRRR. I ducked, he apologized, he took the gun back to his car to do whatever. Officer was plainly much relieved to have control of that gun. Funny thing was, every other adult in the vehicle was armed, and he was relieved because he'd just gotten the firearm away from the only person for whom he had positive ID. Uh, no ticket then, either.
I did get a ticket 9 or maybe 10 years back, when we first moved here. Pretty sure I flunked the attitude test on that one. Not intentionally, but I was about to bust my bladder (which was why I was speeding home) and so I'm sure I wasn't pleasant & relaxed and officer figured something wasn't right. *shrug* Had it coming to me, because I was speeding. They don't have to let you off!
pax
i have no problems with my fellow citizens carrying protection. and I don't mean condoms.
seriously, I have responded to calls where armed citizens were present. I am ok with it and just ask that they don't carry when we are actually on scene.
i once had a newer officer ask me to assist him on a traffic stop. turns out the guy he stopped was the manager of a restaurant in a tough part of town. the manager, who closes up shop (where he is the only guy, and has about 6 teen age girl waitresses as staff) was stopped and was found out to be carrying a pistol under his seat. the pistol was in a case, loaded, but concealed. misdemeanor if you go by the letter of the law in our state.
this guy is super clean, no record, very cooperative, and has a pretty darn good reason to be carrying IMHO.
i suggested we advise him of the letter of the law, we made sure the pistol was not reported stolen (serial # check) and then disassembled it for him and sent him home.
spirit of the law vs. letter of the law
seriously, I have responded to calls where armed citizens were present. I am ok with it and just ask that they don't carry when we are actually on scene.
i once had a newer officer ask me to assist him on a traffic stop. turns out the guy he stopped was the manager of a restaurant in a tough part of town. the manager, who closes up shop (where he is the only guy, and has about 6 teen age girl waitresses as staff) was stopped and was found out to be carrying a pistol under his seat. the pistol was in a case, loaded, but concealed. misdemeanor if you go by the letter of the law in our state.
this guy is super clean, no record, very cooperative, and has a pretty darn good reason to be carrying IMHO.
i suggested we advise him of the letter of the law, we made sure the pistol was not reported stolen (serial # check) and then disassembled it for him and sent him home.
spirit of the law vs. letter of the law
WA state, must be where you get pulled over. 
I'm still driving without my front license plate, and haven't been pulled over yet. If I did, I worry more about what they'll think of the garbage strewn about my car than my pistol. Honestly, since I left the east coast, I rarely feel the need to speed. I've had remarkably fewer encounters with law enforcement since I started doing that. Imagine that!
jmm
I'm still driving without my front license plate, and haven't been pulled over yet. If I did, I worry more about what they'll think of the garbage strewn about my car than my pistol. Honestly, since I left the east coast, I rarely feel the need to speed. I've had remarkably fewer encounters with law enforcement since I started doing that. Imagine that!
jmm
Shootcraps
Member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2004
- Messages
- 1,007
nyresq makes a good point. There probably are a lot of citizens carrying that could benefit from a little extra training beyond what their license calls for. I have seen people at the range who knew little beyond, "Point it that way and pull the trigger". Carrying concealed IS a big responsibility.
But, even though they get a fair amount of training, not all LEOs are gun folks. It's been estimated that 60-75% of them just look at it as part of their job and do the minimum necessary to qualify. I've heard of cops who only visit the range a week before their quals so they can practice up.
I've been back in Virginia almost two years and haven't been pulled over yet (knock on wood). I have heard the city cops are generally unfriendly to CCW. With luck, I'll never find out.
But, even though they get a fair amount of training, not all LEOs are gun folks. It's been estimated that 60-75% of them just look at it as part of their job and do the minimum necessary to qualify. I've heard of cops who only visit the range a week before their quals so they can practice up.
I've been back in Virginia almost two years and haven't been pulled over yet (knock on wood). I have heard the city cops are generally unfriendly to CCW. With luck, I'll never find out.
The Drew
Member
In all seriousness, how many LEO's get any more training than that? It's a pretty small percentage. Add to that the fact that MOST LEO's don't give a damn about their marksmanship because their gun is just another tool. All the armed citizens I know who carry regularly practice with their weapons on a regular basis (not just once or twice a year for qualification). They also know the law, and know when drawing that weapon is appropriate according to the law, and when firing that weapon is appropriate within the law.
I suggest you check the stats in florida, and see how many times their CCW was abused, they have plenty of real good detailed data about revocations, and crimes committed by CCW holders. The "wackos" are such a small minority that they are negligible. What is the percentage if "wackos" that get hired into Law enforcement? I'll bet the percentage is much higher, since there is much greater opportunity to abuse their power...
The Drew
Member
Eisande said:
Do you have them draw their pistol and unload it there? Seems to me it would be a better policy to just leave it holstered.
Harve Curry
Member
The problem with New York and firearms/handguns is the Sullivan Law which has effected the knowledge, understanding, and thinking of the general population about handguns and the 2nd Amendment for 100 years now. It is a rarity to see handguns there or people who really know much about them.
----"Do you have them draw their pistol and unload it there? Seems to me it would be a better policy to just leave it holstered."
The times we encounter the situation is when responding to a residence or business, in which case I would ask them to leave the weapon inside (assuming the BG isn't in there of course).
Since I am in the Los Angeles area we RARELY see CCW permits, but if that was the case, CCW holder detaining BG's, we would probably have them set the gun down, we pick it up, determine who is who in the zoo, and then I would give them their gun back. I am probably in the minority in LE due to a greater interest in firearms AND second amendment issues.
The times we encounter the situation is when responding to a residence or business, in which case I would ask them to leave the weapon inside (assuming the BG isn't in there of course).
Since I am in the Los Angeles area we RARELY see CCW permits, but if that was the case, CCW holder detaining BG's, we would probably have them set the gun down, we pick it up, determine who is who in the zoo, and then I would give them their gun back. I am probably in the minority in LE due to a greater interest in firearms AND second amendment issues.
EghtySx
Member
What kills me are people who think that just because they are in NY or Kali they can make rules for the rest of us. What you people do there, how you live, your habits and knowledge, are so different from someone living in ... well, pretty much anywhere else, that you have no idea what it is like in the real world. Your culture is entirely different from the cultures of other areas. That's why we have states. Do what you want in your own backyard and leave the rest of us alone. Just because you big city wierdos can't handle something doesn't mean you have to try and pass laws controlling the rest of us. Many of us grew up with our guns and with no formal training can handle them better in our teens than you ever will.
Point is, every place is different. Do what you gotta do in in freakville, leave the normals alone.
Point is, every place is different. Do what you gotta do in in freakville, leave the normals alone.
Boogyman
Member
pax said:
No offense, Pax, but you are a woman, and possibly an attractive one, and male police officers do tend to treat women differently. I'm not saying it's o.k, but it is a reality. Having kids in the car helps also.
As a single male, my experiences in WA have been a little different. (see my earlier post)
Having said that, I believe if I had broken the speed limit as often as you do, I probably would have gotten a lot more tickets, therefore learning my lesson.
This may be a good argument for more female officers, just to balance things out...
Fat. Middle aged.
Notice how often my husband has had the same experience. He drives at least 50,000 miles a year (often more), no kids in the car most the time. Hasn't had a ticket here in at least 9 years, though he's been pulled over a few times.
pax
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