Less Lethal Shotgun rounds against humans/animals yea or nay?

[Texasgrillchef]

Less lethal shotgun rounds, all gauges, using rubber balls, “bean” bags, rock salt, etc.. use against humans or animals for self defense, or even for nuisance small animal control. Yea or nay and why?

For any lawyers who wish to chime in, if you would like to give a legal point of view it would be welcomed.

I do know some jurisdictions they are not allowed. (or so I have heard)

 

[George P]

For critters? Sure if they work. For humans? No. If you need to use a firearm, it is because they only way to deescalate things is to stop the threat, not tickle it

 

[Reloadron]

If I point a gun at a human or animal I have only one intent and that is to kill whatever it is. Rubber bullets, bean bags and other so called non lethal projectiles have their place I am sure, just not in any of my applications.

Ron

 

[Dunross]

Nay.

If it's serious enough to point a gun then it's serious enough to use good ammunition.

Otherwise use some other tool to get the job done.

 

[Old Dog]

No, no and no. I'm forced to employ a less-lethal SG from time to time, and frankly, it's not the legality, it's the effectiveness. The "bean-bag" rounds (even the drag-stabilized) can turn your gun into a single shot and just aren't that accurate. The rubber ball rounds are almost completely useless.

If you're gonna go less-lethal, you'd be better served by a 40mm launcher. Several types of pretty effective munitions exist for these.

 

[jmr40]

Are any of these even available to non LE? I've not seen any. For crowd control from a LE or possibly military perspective I see a purpose. I can't think of a situation where it might be an option for me. Pepper spray or bear spray is about as close as I can think of for a less than lethal weapon that would work for me.

 

[JJFitch]

According to the training I received the "bean bag" and "baton" launchers are designed for riot control and not defense.

I've used the bean bag (county jail riot) and they do work out to 15 yards. The other effective riot deterrent is the "pepper ball launcher", think paint ball gun! The best riot deterrent ever!

The effectiveness is probably the reason they were banned in the Marxist Mafia run cities!

Smiles,

 

[Riomouse911]

If you are thinking that you’ll “bust out the gauge” and chase off vandals by using less lethal rounds You are opening yourself up to a huge amount of civil and criminal liability.

Unless it’s an encounter where lethal force could reasonably be used to defend lives from a deadly threat, You’ll be brandishing a firearm at a minimum. If you fire anything at a person in a non-life threatening situation where your intent is to try to scare away the person, kiss your freedom and wallet goodbye. Even if it is called “less lethal.”

We’ve seen far too many situations where people break out a gun where it’s uncalled for and get crucified, even when shots aren’t fired. Avoid that train wreck at all costs!

Stay safe.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Are any of these even available to non LE? I've not seen any. For crowd control from a LE or possibly military perspective I see a purpose. I can't think of a situation where it might be an option for me. Pepper spray or bear spray is about as close as I can think of for a less than lethal weapon that would work for me.

midwayusa.com has less lethal shotgun shells

 

[entropy]

NO.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Rubber slugs or buckshot are a go-to here in MT for running bears out of the yard. My buddy lives on a small acreage up the side of a mountain and has black bears in the yard frequently, but the rubber rounds do a good job of sending them packing. It also seems to put a bit of fear of humans into them. He's not an idiot though, he has regular slugs on hand as well. For humans I wouldn't recommend them for two reasons- first they can still be lethal especially at close range and legally they still constitute lethal force. If you're in the same legal position with rubber or lead you might as well use lead.

 

[Nw2Sw]

I have a couple boxes of bean bag rounds a buddy gave me. I keep them but I dont see a scenario that I'll ever use them.

 

[lemaymiami]

Less than lethal? Yes, but only if you’re part of a team with one (or more) dedicated “less than lethal” operators. You still must have at least one fully ready standard lethal ‘gunner ready to go as part of the crew... This is for that rare situation when you’re doing everything possible to take down a very violent disturbed individual without killing them.

I must say that I’ve never had such a luxury... In real life you’re either on your own - or you’re the only shotgunner on the scene. You’d better have 00buck 99% of the time (Or slugs for a barricaded subject...) since the good guys don’t always win, period.

Fortunately in most situations if you have a clear shot with a shotgun the target stands down most days. I went many years and had the drop on a fair number of serious bad guys - and only fired a single shot in 22 years... Wish it hadn’t happened- but it did and that was that.

I’ll be living with it as long as I’m still around.

 

[792mauser]

Oh HELL ******* no.
Saw that happen in Mexico once. They beat the guy half to death before we got there and cracked heads with bats and 2x4s.
NO EFFING WAY IN HELL.


If you point a firearm and pull the trigger and it doesn't stop em, you better get ready to be beat to unconsciousness at best if they don't run.

Less lethal is for ranged crowd/riot control.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Rubber slugs or buckshot are a go-to here in MT for running bears out of the yard. My buddy lives on a small acreage up the side of a mountain and has black bears in the yard frequently, but the rubber rounds do a good job of sending them packing. It also seems to put a bit of fear of humans into them. He's not an idiot though, he has regular slugs on hand as well. For humans I wouldn't recommend them for two reasons- first they can still be lethal especially at close range and legally they still constitute lethal force. If you're in the same legal position with rubber or lead you might as well use lead.

I would agree on humans. We humans are a litigious bunch. So even if it was was a justified legal shooting with deadly force allowed, we would probably be sued for using less lethal versus the real thing. I’m like everyone else though, if it’s a justified shooting, I want the real thing. Some people high on various drugs can even take being hit a few or more times with deadly ammo and still be Extremely dangerous.

With a lot of animal rights activists not wanting us to kill animals, if using less lethal ammo on animals will scare them away without serious injury I would be all for it. Bear spray doesn’t actually work all the time. There is at least one case where a person was killed and an empty can of bear spray was found next to them. Weather factors don’t always work well with bear spray.

If your shotgun can hold 5 rounds... a couple rounds of less lethal ammo, followed up by buckshot &/or slugs might be a good defense for bear or moose. If the first two rounds don’t get the animal running away. Then you have three follow up shots that can be deadly if needed.

I honestly would prefer not to kill a bear or a moose if I don’t have too. I don’t trust bear spray.

Now in my 45+ years of hiking and the more then dozen bears I have come across, luckily I have never had to fire on a bear. Although there have been a few times I have pulled a weapon and was ready if needed. Luckily never needed. Black bears it could be effective on, and smaller brown bears, some of the larger ones I have seen, or polar bears. I don’t know how effective they would be.

 

[Virginian]

Nay. Against humans I would prefer there only be one witness - me. Against animals too much LESS lethal on them may be lethal for you.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I'm not willing to point a real gun at anything or anyone that I'm not willing to destroy.

I'm also not willing to take a Nerf gun to a gun fight.

 

[natman]

No. As a civilian the only reason for shooting at a human being is because of an immediate threat, and if there's an immediate threat you want real ammunition.

 

[Kleanbore]

Nay. Against humans I would prefer there only be one witness - me.

So, you would intend to kill everyone within visual and audible range?

That post could seal your fate, were you ever to kill anyone. It is public and permanent.

 

[dfariswheel]

Against animals, maybe. As in you're scaring a bear from the yard.

Against humans "LESS lethal" ammo is only usable when you're backed up by another person using LETHAL ammo so if/when the less lethal fails the other person is ready to fire lethal ammo to prevent you getting taken out.

In most cases the law is simple......If you fire a gun at someone it doesn't matter if it's a load of buckshot or a load of goose feathers..... You've fired a lethal weapon at a human.
The situation BETTER be that someone's life or physical safety was at genuine risk enough to warrant firing at them.
If that's the case, legally and morally it doesn't matter if they live or die, that's on them.

As the late famed Bill Jordan said..."Like being pregnant, there's no such thing as shooting someone just a little. If you have to shoot someone, shoot 'em GOOD".

Figuring that you don't want to kill someone, so you'll shoot them with less lethal ammo is how you either.
A. Kill or seriously wound someone you didn't really intend to. (It's LESS-lethal, not NON-lethal).
B. Fail to stop someone who then kills you or your family.

If it's serious enough to shoot, it's serious enough to send the very best.....buckshot.
If not, you have no business firing a gun at someone no matter if it's just a blank.

 

[jeepnik]

If I ever need to shoot someone again, I have no intention of trying to convince them to alter their behavior. I want to stop their behavior. Termination of brain function is the only way to completely stop someones behavior.

 

[MacAR]

Absolutely not. If you're going to shoot something, kill it. Whether man or beast, it deserves the respect of a quick end. Black-jacks, ax handles, and less-than-lethal shotgun rounds don't accomplish this. Therefor, outside of crowd control, I see no good use for them.

Mac

 

[bdickens]

Absolutely not!

Keep in mind that when the cops use that stuff, they have backup nearby with real ammo.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Legally speaking...where are we covered in the eyes of the law for any use of "less than lethal" shotgun rounds? Is there any legal benefit to this at all, over "standard" ammunition?

As non-law enforcement officers, we aren't covered by "Qualified Immunity". Which means, less than lethal or not, we may very much be held liable for any injuries/deaths which may occur through the use of "less than lethal" ammunition of any kind, more so than those in the LEO community.

 

[Random 8]

I'm going with nay vs. Humans. A paintball gun would be a better option, and might still get you an assault charge.

I do use a non-lethal shotgun load for deterring deer around my property. Have also used it once on a large aggressive dog. It is a standard 1 1/8oz size shotcup filled with Airsoft pellets over a BPGS base wad. I won't quote my charge of Red Dot as it is off book, but it is significantly lighter than a standard trap load. Proceed at your own risk. It is unsuitable for close range use, the airsoft pellets will penetrate corrugated cardboard to 15 yards or so. At longer ranges it is very effective at moving pests along.