Lesson Learned-------Odd 223 Brass

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lightman

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I've got a Prairie Dog hunt coming up and we will be shooting out of ATV's so there is a possibility of loosing some brass. I decided to prep a bunch of my odd ball commercial and military cases for the trip. I resized them, trimmed them, deburred the flash hole and uniformed the primer pockets. I also swadged any primer crimps. When I started priming them there was so much difference in the pressure required to seat the primer that I just junked the whole mess! :fire: Its not worth etching a bolt face trying to save a few dollars on brass. I know better, good 223 brass is so plentiful and cheap its not worth messing with odd stuff. Just venting, I'm better now!:)
 
I did the same thing! I got everything set up to reload .223, brought 2 gallons of brass home, prepped everything, and started to load. Got through 3 primers, pushed all three out with a pick, and junked the whole bucket of brass. Since I am just plinking with my .223, it is easier and cheaper to buy bulk overrun than to reload.
 
I agree with the above, except that there are gems to be found in range brass. All my range pickup comes home, is sorted for head stamp and primer crimp/sealer. The crimped and sealed FC and LC is kept as once fired. The rest goes back to the range's recycle bucket. I was finding around 5% once fired FC/LC, now it's closer to 40%. It pays to sort that stuff.
 
Been paying ~5.5 cents~ per, shipped, for unprocessed LC 223. Need to return all my 'unknown mileage' LC back to the Range and dig into that newer stuff,,,
 
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IMO the probable cause if the tight primer pockets is not properly swagging out the crimps. Nothing wrong with using new brass but if there is a good chance of losing it I would have a hard time using new brass for that hunt.
 
SCC said:
I agree with the above, except that there are gems to be found in range brass. All my range pickup comes home, is sorted for head stamp and primer crimp/sealer. The crimped and sealed FC and LC is kept as once fired. The rest goes back to the range's recycle bucket. I was finding around 5% once fired FC/LC, now it's closer to 40%. It pays to sort that stuff.
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I have collected a bunch of once-fired LC and Federal brass at the range where I shoot. The 100 yard rifle range has 50 and 25 yard lanes on the far right, and I sometimes setup down there to test pistol or lever-action loads. Almost every weekend, someone will show up all "tacticool" with their AR, sometimes to sight in their red-dots, and commence to shoot up 200-300 rounds of factory ammo on the 25 yard line. I ask them if they are saving their brass, if not, I offer to sweep it up for them.

I don't normally like to pick up brass that I don't know the history of, but if it still has the crimp on it, I am sure it was truly once-fired. The downside is that I have to remove the crimp. LOL.
 
I see the OP's post as a waist of brass, time and money along with lack of knowledge. If your doing it right any old 223 brass loads just fine and shoots just fine. I have noticed the last few years on a few forums that some reloaders are becoming what I would call elitists with there brass and look down there noses on anything but new or once fired LC brass. I remember when brass was hard to come by at the ranges and when someone happened across a good brass score they would post up all excited, now if your not shooting new or LC brass your considered low class. I suppose its the availability of cheap LC brass that has people scoffing at range brass and if the price of brass or availability changes to like it was a few years ago these brass elitists will be walking around the rifle range with there eyes glued to the ground looking for any little old 223 case they can find.
 
I reckon I'm fortunate as there's always been "Brass O' Plenty" at my local range.

I used to rat-hole all kinds of brass away. In 223 alone, I've got a couple hundred of this, about a thousand of those, maybe 600 of another, and even more of my 'well used' LC. Not to mention plenty of 'factory new' 223 ammo left over from my AR days,,,

As a result, this rat's ~nest~ is getting a bit crowded, and 'this, those, and another' are all sitting empty, same as they have been for a long time now.

I find that keeping with (1) head stamp keeps things simple. Ordered another ~1k~ of 'once fired' military LC last night for same price I mentioned above, bringing my unprocessed 'once fired Military' 223 stash up to 2k now,,,. (I reckon I'd better get busy processing it, ya reckon!?!?! LOL!)

My 'well used LC' and 'this/that/the other' will either be left at the range or given to my Dad as he enjoys taking all kinds of stuff to his local recycler. (That, and he saves his 9mm and 45 brass for me.)
 
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Muddydogs said:
I see the OP's post as a waist of brass, time and money along with lack of knowledge. If your doing it right any old 223 brass loads just fine and shoots just fine. I have noticed the last few years on a few forums that some reloaders are becoming what I would call elitists with there brass and look down there noses on anything but new or once fired LC brass. I remember when brass was hard to come by at the ranges and when someone happened across a good brass score they would post up all excited, now if your not shooting new or LC brass your considered low class. I suppose its the availability of cheap LC brass that has people scoffing at range brass and if the price of brass or availability changes to like it was a few years ago these brass elitists will be walking around the rifle range with there eyes glued to the ground looking for any little old 223 case they can find.
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Well, opinions are like something else and yours kind of stinks! Thats pretty strong wording about someone that you don't know that may have may have as much or more experience and knowledge than you and maybe equal or better equipment. But Thanks for the reply, even though it was kind of useless! I agree, prepping this brass was a waste (not waist) of time but my scrap bucket is now heavier!

I've been through several shortages, not just the last one, and remember brass being in short supply. Thats the main reason that I still had this stuff and was trying to use it. I don't feel that I'm being an elitists in any way. As for lack of knowledge, I now know to junk this stuff and not to spend time prepping it!

The main problem, that maybe I did not state clearly, was not the crimped primer pockets or tight fitting primers so much as several that were too loose. The swage did the job pretty well. There was a scattering of odd commercial headstamps like GFL, Perfecto, Aguila, PMC, PPU, PSD, crimped FC and maybe a few more. The flash holes were off centered and some were under size, the length was all over the place, the primer pockets were not very uniform. There was also military headstamps like WCC, WRA and LC that were much more consistent.

But anyway, Thanks for the replys everyone.
 
SCC said:
I agree with the above, except that there are gems to be found in range brass. All my range pickup comes home, is sorted for head stamp and primer crimp/sealer. The crimped and sealed FC and LC is kept as once fired. The rest goes back to the range's recycle bucket. I was finding around 5% once fired FC/LC, now it's closer to 40%. It pays to sort that stuff.
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I find a lot of good stuff too, not just the odd brands. Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Barnes and even some Nosler. I was just trying to use some of the odd stuff.
 
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ArchAngelCD said:
IMO the probable cause if the tight primer pockets is not properly swagging out the crimps. Nothing wrong with using new brass but if there is a good chance of losing it I would have a hard time using new brass for that hunt.
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I didn't properly or fully explain the problems. The swage did its job and those cases worked ok. The main problem was with the odd commercial cases. Some were so loose that I could tap on the case and the primer would fall out. Other cases were so tight that the priming tool would flatten the primer. This was odd brass with an unknown history but I believed it to be once fired.
 
lightman said:
The flash holes were off centered and some were under size, the length was all over the place, the primer pockets were not very uniform. There was also military headstamps like WCC, WRA and LC that were much more consistent.
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But you said you uniformed the primer pockets so how could they be not very uniform.

From you first post its obvious that the brass isn't so much the issue. Sure your going to find loose primer pockets in multi fired brass, I find that primer pockets loosen up way before I start getting split necks. Just set the loose primer pocket brass aside to be deprimed and tossed. If you uniformed the primer pocket and still flattened primers then either your uniformer isn't up to spec, the case has a primer crimp that needs removed, you didn't cut or swag the crimp out enough or you didn't cut enough with the uniformer. How do I know, been there and done that.
 
Muddydogs said:
But you said you uniformed the primer pockets so how could they be not very uniform.

From you first post its obvious that the brass isn't so much the issue. Sure your going to find loose primer pockets in multi fired brass, I find that primer pockets loosen up way before I start getting split necks. Just set the loose primer pocket brass aside to be deprimed and tossed. If you uniformed the primer pocket and still flattened primers then either your uniformer isn't up to spec, the case has a primer crimp that needs removed, you didn't cut or swag the crimp out enough or you didn't cut enough with the uniformer. How do I know, been there and done that.
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I'm guess I'm not putting enough detail in my post to fully explain the problems I encountered. My fault! My uniformer only cuts the bottom of the primer pocket and not the sides. If the pocket is already oversize, which was most of the problem, my tool won't do anything with it. I had no issue with any of the crimped pockets that I swaged, just loose ones on the non-crimped cases.

I really only posted this hoping to give everyone a heads up that using odd brass could be problematic. I've done it a lot but this new crop of stuff is by far the worst that I have encountered. I think most of this brass was once fired, but who knows? My thinking is based on finding most of the empty boxes with no load data pasted on them and the plastic cartridge holders. I know, if you pick it up you take your chances!

But, its all good. I hope you have a safe and enjoyable Holiday weekend! I'm off to the lake since we move the dates on our Prairie Dog weekend.
 
Muddydogs said:
now if your not shooting new or LC brass your considered low class
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I'm considered low class in some circles and it has nothing to do with my brass

We are in times of plenty now and my inventory is full, particularly with once fired .223 and .308 brass. The only thing I'm scrounging for at the range now is .45 ACP
 
lightman said:
Some were so loose that I could tap on the case and the primer would fall out
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Some of mine are ~looser than others~, but dang,,, nothing quite like that!!
Whenever I obtain results ~like that~, my patience quickly wears quite thin!!! :cuss:

I tend to not stick a whole lotta tools down in my PPockets,,, Once the crimp is removed, typically nothing more that an occasional 'wire brush' on my case trimming station..
 
I looked at it this way loading my .223 Remington rounds.

Once fired, deprimed, cleaned and swaged LC brass...... 0.10 or free range brass
500 bulk Hornady soft points.......................0.10 ea.
Small rifle primers......................................0.03 ea.
Powder 7000 gr/ lb /25gr/rd=4rds/100gr=280 rds/ lb=approx. 0.11/rd @ $30/lb for powder

About 0.23/round with free brass and not including time spent....subject to # loads/lb and powder cost.

Cheapest brass cased bulk [1000] round ammo I found today:

Federal 5.56 MM 55 GR. M193 BT 1000 RDS (XM193BK) at 0.29/rd + shipping

HMMMM..........
 
I agree, you can buy bulk ammo for only a little more than you can load it for. When you go to a plastic tip varmint bullet the cost goes way up, in the 90cent range. Thats what these were going to be loaded with.
 
lightman said:
I agree, you can buy bulk ammo for only a little more than you can load it for. When you go to a plastic tip varmint bullet the cost goes way up, in the 90cent range. Thats what these were going to be loaded with.
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Even soft tip bumps the price. Shooting overrun military FMJ bought in bulk is the only way to shoot factory loaded ammo for anything in the ballpark of handloads. Semi-premium bullets are about $0.20 each so at 33 cents a round vs the above referenced 90 cents a shot, shooting a similar factory loaded bullet you are saving about 60% per shot. Put this into reasonable perspective and you see numbers that make me smile.
 
Interesting thread.

I reload an shoot about 5K of .223 a year. I don't sort my .223 range brass. I clean it, punch the primers and resize, ream out the primer pockets, run it thru a gauge, trim it if it needs it, prime it and reload it.

I don't have any problems seating primers. I have an RCBS hand primer. The thing I found here was swagers don't work real well. People pay a lot of money for those things and a reamer works much better and is cheaper. The crimp is what makes a primer hard to seat. If you don't remove it completely it's going to cause problems. Instead of just stretching it and having it partially return to it's original size (brass can do that) just ream it all out. A adjustable speed drill and a 82° countersink bit works like magic. I use one of these.

https://www.amazon.com/Ryobi-A10CS7...5&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=ryobi+countersink+bit

A few other things I've noticed. All range brass won't resize properly. The case gauge will catch that and I just toss those. Check it with a gauge before you prime it or waste a primer. My theory on this is some AR chambers expand the brass to a point it can't be resized at the base.

I mark my brass with a red marker over the head stamp to ID it from other range brass I pick up. That way I know I don't need to trim or ream again.

I have two .223 rifles. I've put thousands of rounds of reloaded range brass thru both. I've never purchased a single piece of .223 brass.

I would go so far as to say if you if you are having problems reloading range brass you're doing something wrong.
 
The main problem was loose primer pockets, not tight primer pockets. The swage did its job, but I usually cut the crimp out rather than swage it. I use a carbide countersink in a cordless drill. For some reason I chose to swage them this time. The cases with the extremely loose primers did not have crimped primers and I did not swage them. I'm failing to see where I did anything wrong on these? I usually prime with a Sinclair hand priming tool. Its easy to feel the resistance when priming with this tool. I've loaded 223 range brass since I built my first AR, back in the 80's. This is the first time I've had this much trouble with range brass. This batch did have the largest vacation of headstamps. Until I deep sixed this batch I was culling about 50% because of loose primers!

I'm just finished prepping 1000 Winchester cases without a hitch. All primers seated with about the same resistance so I'm ruling out the primer as the problem.
 
I guess there's nothing you can do about a too large primer pocket. Instead of tossing the whole lot I would get one of those pocket gauges. I might get one anyway even tho I don't seam to have the same problem. Who's knows, I might run into it some day. I'm a believer in gauges.
 
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