Lethal force,an explanation from an expert

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gym

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This comes up a lot, so when I saw this article I pasted it in here, as I have seen that Mr Massad Ayoob, is a member here also. As we were discussing this very thing in that post last week about the pelet gun. What follows shows how things can change in a short time. Mr ayoob identifies each scenario, and explains them for us.
Step One—The Central Ideas: Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, and Preclusion
The use of lethal force that can end in homicide is justified in the situation of immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent. — Massad Ayoob

That statement by Mr. Ayoob, one of the premier authorities on these matters, is a succinct summary of the basic elements of any justifiable use of force in self-defense. Essentially, it is very simple: In order to determine justifiability, the courts want to know that you had to do what you did. Since “had to” is a pretty subjective judgment, it is legally defined, usually in the following way:

Ability
Your attacker must have the ability—the physical, practical ability—to cause you harm. Common sense applies here, as does context. A gun gives your attacker ability (lethal ability, in fact); a knife gives ability as well. Indeed, most weapons qualify, all the way down to glass bottles, baseball bats, and screwdrivers. While the latter are not designed as weapons, if they are applied as such, they can certainly kill you just as dead.

Other “ability” considerations include disparity in size or physical power between you and your attacker—a very large man versus a very small man, a strong man versus a cripple, a trained fighter versus a bookworm, a man versus a woman, all can apply. And don’t forget disparity in numbers—four men attacking one can very easily kill or cripple, unless that one is a Hollywood action hero.

Most of the above are valid lethal force scenarios, but non-lethal force uses the same standard. Just about anyone can punch you and break your nose, or break your arm, or bruise your stomach.

In short, common sense is a more or less effective guide on this point. The important question is simply whether, as far as you know, the attacker has the ability to harm you—kill or maim you, if you respond with lethal force, or lesser degrees of danger for equivalently lesser uses of force.

Opportunity
Although opportunity can be viewed as a subset of ability, it is an equally important criterion. Basically, while your attacker may very well have the ability to cause you harm, it means nothing unless he also has the opportunity to do so—right here and right now. After all, there are probably countless criminals in the world who “could” kill you and might do so, given the chance; but they aren’t standing in front of you at this moment, so they don’t have that opportunity.

The biggest consideration here is range or proximity. Although a man with a gun is considered dangerous at any reasonable distance, a man with a knife standing 300 feet away is not, simply because he cannot stab you from that far away. Yet there is another factor, as well. If he were standing mere yards away, he still probably couldn’t reach you with his knife, but because it would only take him moments to approach you and change that, he would still be considered dangerous. A common police standard is to assume that a knife-wielding assailant is capable of covering 21 feet and striking with the blade in 1.5 seconds. Mull on that time span.

Some other considerations may apply when it comes to Opportunity. For instance, is a knife-wielding assailant behind a locked door a threat? Probably not. Therefore, if you were to shoot him through the door, that would not be justifiable. On the other hand, if he started—successfully—breaking the door down, then he would promptly become dangerous again. Again, use common sense.

Jeopardy
The most subjective factor of the AOJP analysis is the jeopardy requirement, sometimes called “imminent jeopardy.” This criterion requires that, in your specific situation, a “reasonable and prudent” person would have believed himself to be in immediate danger.

In other words, jeopardy is what distinguishes between a potentially dangerous situation and one that is actually dangerous. Hundreds of times every day, you walk by people who could punch or stab or shoot you. The reason you aren’t “defending” yourself against them is because you have no reason to think that they are actually about to attack you. (Why would they?)

On the other hand, if someone screams a threat and points a gun at you, any sane person would expect that behavior to indicate an intent to cause you harm.

It’s important to recognize that you cannot actually know this person’s intent; you are not a mind reader. All you can judge is his outward appearance and demeanor, which, in that case, are consistent with harmful intent. If it turns out that he was joking, or lying, or the gun was fake, or he wouldn’t actually have pulled the trigger, nothing changes, because you could not have known those things.

The other important qualifier to remember is that the jeopardy must be immediate. A general threat to your well-being in the distant future is meaningless, but “I’m gonna kill you right now!” is meaningful.

Finally, it’s essential to understand that the “immediate jeopardy” condition can go away at the drop of a hat. On the one hand, if you are attacked, beaten, and left lying in an alley, you are not justified in shooting your attacker in the back as he walks away, because he will have ceased to be a threat. On the other hand, if he turns around and comes back for more, then the immediate jeopardy resumes. Jeopardy can cease suddenly and unexpectedly if your attacker surrenders or clearly ceases to be a threat (if you knock him unconscious, for instance, or he tries to run), and continuing to use force in such situations can change your action from legal self-defense to illegal battery in moments.

Preclusion
Preclusion is not so much an individual consideration as it is an all-encompassing lens through which to view your actions. More complex than the others, it is nevertheless just as important. It is the idea that, whatever the situation, you are expected to use force only as a last resort—that is, only when the circumstances preclude all other options.

In other words, even when the ability, opportunity, and jeopardy criteria are satisfied, and knowing that you must clearly do something to protect yourself, the use of force, particularly lethal force, may only be that “something” if you have no other safe options.

The word “safe” is key there, because at no time does the law ever require you to choose an action that endangers yourself. If you can run away or retreat, you should, but if doing so would put you in harm’s way, you are not required to do so.

Preclusion is the factor that is missing in most self-defense arguments, and thus the reason most fail. You must remember that you bear the burden of proof; until you prove otherwise, the law merely sees two equal citizens in a dispute. You can say, “He tried to hit me,” but then the police and the courts will ask, “Why didn’t you _____?” You must have no options to offer to fill in that blank—there must have been no other courses of action you could have taken to maintain your safety except the use of force. Otherwise, you’re just fighting because you want to, and that’s a crime.

Does the Preclusion standard mean that an ultimatum like “give me your money or I’ll hurt you” requires you to, well, give him your money? Unless you honestly believe that he may hurt you anyway, yes. The law values “life and limb” above property. Or you can refuse, but you may not respond with a fist. He’s giving you a choice, which, by definition, means that you still have options other than force.

The point is simply that you must exercise self-restraint to the greatest extent possible. One vital aspect of this requirement concerns the appropriateness or degree of the force you employ, or how well suited your response is to the threat itself. If a man punches you, you probably cannot justifiably shoot him, because that’s a lethal response to a non-lethal attack. If a three-year-old punches you, you probably cannot do anything at all. If, on the other hand, a 300-pound boxer punches you, you may be justified in responding with deadly force, because his fists can be deadly as well.

Always remember:

The threat must be current, immediate, and unavoidable.
Your level of force must be appropriate to the threat.
Your use of force must stop when the threat ceases.
If at any point you smudge the first, exceed the second, or forget the third, you are running the risk of a criminal indictment—and if the results are glaring (e.g., you killed him), it’s nearly certain.

Knock your attacker over—then keep stomping on him while he’s down and not moving? Bad. Pull a knife and slash—and keep slashing when your assailant pulls away? Uh-oh; now you’re not only breaking the rules, you’re leaving “defensive wounds,” a signature of cuts and marks which forensics experts will use to prove that he was an unwilling victim.

I guess this is why he gets asked to testify in these cases often. The "lethal force" scenario is indeed constantlly changing even as it's happening.
 
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Does the Preclusion standard mean that an ultimatum like “give me your money or I’ll hurt you” requires you to, well, give him your money? Unless you honestly believe that he may hurt you anyway, yes. The law values “life and limb” above property. Or you can refuse, but you may not respond with a fist. He’s giving you a choice, which, by definition, means that you still have options other than force.

I have trouble believing that Mas, or any police officier, would tell us that we are somehow required to hand over are valuables or risk prosecution. Even worse, to say that you can't in anyway fight back to not only being robbed, but being threatened with bodily harm is ridiculous.

And it's a wide generalization to say that "the law" values life over property. Doesn't Texas have laws saying you can use deadly force to protect your property.

This post contains alot of good information, but there's enough wrong (or incomplete) information to make it dangerous
 
+1 for Dragonfire. Laws vary by state and jurisdiction. What's legal in Virginia is illegal in Maryland which can be one of many reasons why the violent crime rate in Maryland is so much higher than in Virginia.

Good stuff, but it needs to be looked at within the framwork of each state IMO.

mk
 
And it's a wide generalization to say that "the law" values life over property. Doesn't Texas have laws saying you can use deadly force to protect your property.

Not only can we use deadly force to protect property, but we can use it (deadly force) if we believe the property cannot be recovered without the use of it.

This article probably reflects the average state's view on the preservation of life & property, but there are several states that don't play that game; indeed they offer protection from both criminal & civil prosecution for people who defend themselves or their property without the need for an absolute "life and death" situation.
 
I have trouble believing that Mas, or any police officier, would tell us that we are somehow required to hand over are valuables or risk prosecution

One of Ayoob's habits has long been to tape a 10-dollar bill to a pack of matches so that he can toss it to the potential assailant as a sort of bribe...and to keep him at a distance. The reason is simple. If you can buy your way out with 10 bucks...you're miles ahead of making a stand...even if it's a justified stand in the legal and moral sense.

A criminal proceeding is draining...physically, mentally, emotionally...and financially. On the latter point, it could well be ruinous. If all that can be avoided for a sawbuck and a "cowardly" retreat...it's well worth it. At the very least...even if it fails...it can be shown that you tried to avoid escalating the situation by offering what he wanted peacefully and in a non-threatening manner.

Finally...The knowledge that you killed somebody is also very often a tough thing to deal with. Harder for some than for others. I knew of a clear case of self defense once many years ago. It started over a property line dispute and came to a head 15 years later. The shooter was fully justified. He was an older man, and not in very good shape due to a hard life. The deceased physically attacked him on his own property. The old man was no-billed for murder, and never served a day. A week after he was set free from the charge, he killed himself. The note said that it was remorse...because he felt like there should have been something that he could have done to prevent it going that far...but by standing his rightful ground...it escalated, and a man died...over a 6-inch strip of land. His words: "I wish I'd just given him the damn land."

Food for thought. When you drop that hammer...the game gets very serious.
 
1911Tuner you said it about as well as I would have wanted. Kudos!

If someone has the drop on me and tells me to hand over my wallet, watch or other valuable on my person... its theirs. I would rather cancel credit cards and lose a few dollars than try to make a grab for my gun (which I always carry) and get killed because he/she has the drop on me. I will put him at ease and hand him/her what they want. As my saintly hillbilly grandmother used to say, "Better to say there he goes than there he lays." Im not going to kill someone or get killed by someone over $20 I might have in my wallet or the Timex watch I'm wearing. Its not worth it.

NOW, if it looks like he is going to get aggressive AFTER I've given him what he/she wanted, if my wife and/or kids are with me, or if the opportunity opens itself for me to get my gun, then that is a whole different scenario! I may or may not shoot, but he/she will definitely know they picked the wrong person. I always remembered my Marine Corps explanation for deadly force and it stays with me even today: "Deadly force is that force which a person knows will cause death or serious bodily harm and SHOULD ONLY BE USED AS A LAST RESORT WHEN ALL LESSER MEANS HAVE FAILED."

My favorite quote, "Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it."
 
I took it from here, “http://www.useofforce.us/4details/”, there is a lot of information on that sight. And, “http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/”, in particular . It seemed like he was one who knew the way the law looks at these things better than most of us do. I am sure that there are different variables but he does know more than just about anyone on this subject. I included the links to the material. It gives much more information than can be included in one post. I got that website from here, “http://www.handgunlaw.us/”. There is a ton of info on that site as well that pertains to individual states. He seems to have been giving a general consensus, rather than a state by state guide to exact law. I am sure that the individual cases stand on their own merit in various circumstances. It is more of an encapsulated summary than exact case law in my opinion. But good "rules of the road" so to speak.
 
Most states allow a citizen to use deadly force to stop a "violent crime in progress". Most states include in "violent crimes" armed robbery, battery with a weapon, rape, home invasion, arson, kidnapping among others. This applies whether or not the citizen is the victim.

I am not suggesting a citizen should intervene in a situation where they are not 100% sure they know what is actually happening and even then if a life is not at risk intervention is a bad idea. When the cops show up you may look like the bad guy and get shot.
 
One of Ayoob's habits has long been to tape a 10-dollar bill to a pack of matches so that he can toss it to the potential assailant as a sort of bribe...and to keep him at a distance.

I've read where he's said that, and I completely agree that it is a good idea. One of the keys is to"toss" it to the assailant. When he has to bend over to pick it up you have the option to run away, or draw your gun etc.

But there is a huge difference is being prepared to hand over a token amount to get away, or even completely complying with the robber, and saying I'm REQUIRED by threat of prosecutiong to hand over my money without physically resisting.

I would be interested in see legislation from ANY state that could reasonably be interpretted to support that.
 
About that ten dollar bill taped to a book of matches. Also write your driver's license in the margin of the bill so that when the police search the suspect they will find it and you can then "prove" you tried to placate the suspect prior to "doing something else" about it.
 
I have trouble believing that Mas, or any police officier, would tell us that we are somehow required to hand over are valuables or risk prosecution

I think Ayoob is saying you still have a choice other than lethal force, which is to just refuse to comply with the robber's demand. if he attacks you after your refusal, you may then have no other choice.
 
Different states - different rules as some other posters have stated.

In my state of OK all that is required for the use of lethal force against another is that the one you are defending yourself against have the means, opportunity and intent to do severe or lethal harm to you. In the article those are called ability, opportunity and jeopardy.

The preclusion requirement as described in the article is essentially a duty to retreat given the opportunity. There is no duty to retreat (even if you have the opportunity to do so safely) in OK, either in your home as codified by at least 2 laws I am aware of nor on the street which is codified in a law less than a year old. Thus the requirement for preclusion as defined in the article does not apply in OK (though I imagine if one could satisfy the requirement as defined one could make an even stronger case for self defense if needed).

On the other hand the article defines disparity of force as means. In OK disparity of force is not recognized as a legal principle according to the lawyer who taught the CCW class I attended. He was quizzed at length about it and the class was incredulous over his statements. It's been over 6 years since I got my CCW and I don't remember the specifics of the legal reasoning but I do remember the generality. It still strikes me as strange and something that is of some concern to me considering that I am fast approaching an age where I will be old enough that any average strength 20 something male could do some major damage to me and there'd be little chance of me stopping him without the use of some outside aid.

Point is - know the law of your land re: the application of lethal force. It could save you much money and heartache in the unlikely/unwanted event you find yourself in a lethal force situation.
 
I have a question about the duty to retreat. That could mean a couple of different things. It could mean 1) that you back off and give the other party a chance to disengage, or it could mean 2) that you will retreat as many times as you can until you are back to the wall and your only survival option is lethal force.

In the face of an aggressive attacker, it is imprudent to retreat to the "back to the wall" situation. You would want to make a stand before it gets to that point. That way, you have a chance to recover if you have to clear a jam, or reload. (Or turn the lever from "safe" to "fire" because you forgot in the excitement.)

The problem is the sanctimonious Asst DA who thinks "you could have tried to hide in the bathroom."

Does anyone know how the duty to retreat is defined or explained?
 
Besides the money around the match pack, Ayoob also said that if his home were invaded that he would call 911 and hope that the regular police would arrive before he had to do anything himself. His rationale: he did not want to have his children see him meting out death if at all possible. All in all a very humane and sensible man.
 
The OP really needs to identify his source! There's some insinuation that Mas wrote that piece, when it appears Mas was only connected with the short quotation at the top. So who EXACTLY wrote this discourse and where did it come from?

Does the Preclusion standard mean that an ultimatum like “give me your money or I’ll hurt you” requires you to, well, give him your money? Unless you honestly believe that he may hurt you anyway, yes. The law values “life and limb” above property. Or you can refuse, but you may not respond with a fist. He’s giving you a choice, which, by definition, means that you still have options other than force.

This is false. And I don't believe for a second that Mas wrote it. So who did? The only thing I could find on the web was something from someone called "Brandon Oto."
 
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Post number 7 has that info in it . From the links attached., http://www.useofforce.us/4details/, I don't make things up. In the left margin under lethality, at the end of the first part, click onto page 2 and there it is
UseofForce.us
1: Introduction

2: Lethality

3: AOJP

4: Details

5: Civil Law

6: Applications

7: State Laws

Sources

Contact
Step One—The Central Ideas: Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, and Preclusion
The use of lethal force that can end in homicide is justified in the situation of immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent. — Massad Ayoob

That statement by Mr. Ayoob, one of the premier authorities on these matters, is a succinct summary of the basic elements of any justifiable use of force in self-defense. Essentially, it is very simple: In order to determine justifiability, the courts want to know that you had to do what you did. Since “had to” is a pretty subjective judgment, it is legally defined, usually in the following way:

Ability
Your attacker must have the ability—the physical, practical ability—to cause you harm. Common sense applies here, as does context. A gun gives your attacker ability (lethal ability, in fact); a knife gives ability as well. Indeed, most weapons qualify, all the way down to glass bottles, baseball bats, and screwdrivers. While the latter are not designed as weapons, if they are applied as such, they can certainly kill you just as dead.

Other “ability” considerations include disparity in size or physical power between you and your attacker—a very large man versus a very small man, a strong man versus a cripple, a trained fighter versus a bookworm, a man versus a woman, all can apply. And don’t forget disparity in numbers—four men attacking one can very easily kill or cripple, unless that one is a Hollywood action hero.

Most of the above are valid lethal force scenarios, but non-lethal force uses the same standard. Just about anyone can punch you and break your nose, or break your arm, or bruise your stomach.

In short, common sense is a more or less effective guide on this point. The important question is simply whether, as far as you know, the attacker has the ability to harm you—kill or maim you, if you respond with lethal force, or lesser degrees of danger for equivalently lesser uses of force.

Opportunity
Although opportunity can be viewed as a subset of ability, it is an equally important criterion. Basically, while your attacker may very well have the ability to cause you harm, it means nothing unless he also has the opportunity to do so—right here and right now. After all, there are probably countless criminals in the world who “could” kill you and might do so, given the chance; but they aren’t standing in front of you at this moment, so they don’t have that opportunity.

The biggest consideration here is range or proximity. Although a man with a gun is considered dangerous at any reasonable distance, a man with a knife standing 300 feet away is not, simply because he cannot stab you from that far away. Yet there is another factor, as well. If he were standing mere yards away, he still probably couldn’t reach you with his knife, but because it would only take him moments to approach you and change that, he would still be considered dangerous. A common police standard is to assume that a knife-wielding assailant is capable of covering 21 feet and striking with the blade in 1.5 seconds. Mull on that time span.

Some other considerations may apply when it comes to Opportunity. For instance, is a knife-wielding assailant behind a locked door a threat? Probably not. Therefore, if you were to shoot him through the door, that would not be justifiable. On the other hand, if he started—successfully—breaking the door down, then he would promptly become dangerous again. Again, use common sense.

Jeopardy
The most subjective factor of the AOJP analysis is the jeopardy requirement, sometimes called “imminent jeopardy.” This criterion requires that, in your specific situation, a “reasonable and prudent” person would have believed himself to be in immediate danger.

In other words, jeopardy is what distinguishes between a potentially dangerous situation and one that is actually dangerous. Hundreds of times every day, you walk by people who could punch or stab or shoot you. The reason you aren’t “defending” yourself against them is because you have no reason to think that they are actually about to attack you. (Why would they?)

On the other hand, if someone screams a threat and points a gun at you, any sane person would expect that behavior to indicate an intent to cause you harm.

It’s important to recognize that you cannot actually know this person’s intent; you are not a mind reader. All you can judge is his outward appearance and demeanor, which, in that case, are consistent with harmful intent. If it turns out that he was joking, or lying, or the gun was fake, or he wouldn’t actually have pulled the trigger, nothing changes, because you could not have known those things.

The other important qualifier to remember is that the jeopardy must be immediate. A general threat to your well-being in the distant future is meaningless, but “I’m gonna kill you right now!” is meaningful.

Finally, it’s essential to understand that the “immediate jeopardy” condition can go away at the drop of a hat. On the one hand, if you are attacked, beaten, and left lying in an alley, you are not justified in shooting your attacker in the back as he walks away, because he will have ceased to be a threat. On the other hand, if he turns around and comes back for more, then the immediate jeopardy resumes. Jeopardy can cease suddenly and unexpectedly if your attacker surrenders or clearly ceases to be a threat (if you knock him unconscious, for instance, or he tries to run), and continuing to use force in such situations can change your action from legal self-defense to illegal battery in moments.

Preclusion
Preclusion is not so much an individual consideration as it is an all-encompassing lens through which to view your actions. More complex than the others, it is nevertheless just as important. It is the idea that, whatever the situation, you are expected to use force only as a last resort—that is, only when the circumstances preclude all other options.

In other words, even when the ability, opportunity, and jeopardy criteria are satisfied, and knowing that you must clearly do something to protect yourself, the use of force, particularly lethal force, may only be that “something” if you have no other safe options.

The word “safe” is key there, because at no time does the law ever require you to choose an action that endangers yourself. If you can run away or retreat, you should, but if doing so would put you in harm’s way, you are not required to do so.

Preclusion is the factor that is missing in most self-defense arguments, and thus the reason most fail. You must remember that you bear the burden of proof; until you prove otherwise, the law merely sees two equal citizens in a dispute. You can say, “He tried to hit me,” but then the police and the courts will ask, “Why didn’t you _____?” You must have no options to offer to fill in that blank—there must have been no other courses of action you could have taken to maintain your safety except the use of force. Otherwise, you’re just fighting because you want to, and that’s a crime.

Does the Preclusion standard mean that an ultimatum like “give me your money or I’ll hurt you” requires you to, well, give him your money? Unless you honestly believe that he may hurt you anyway, yes. The law values “life and limb” above property. Or you can refuse, but you may not respond with a fist. He’s giving you a choice, which, by definition, means that you still have options other than force.

The point is simply that you must exercise self-restraint to the greatest extent possible. One vital aspect of this requirement concerns the appropriateness or degree of the force you employ, or how well suited your response is to the threat itself. If a man punches you, you probably cannot justifiably shoot him, because that’s a lethal response to a non-lethal attack. If a three-year-old punches you, you probably cannot do anything at all. If, on the other hand, a 300-pound boxer punches you, you may be justified in responding with deadly force, because his fists can be deadly as well.

Always remember:

The threat must be current, immediate, and unavoidable.
Your level of force must be appropriate to the threat.
Your use of force must stop when the threat ceases.
If at any point you smudge the first, exceed the second, or forget the third, you are running the risk of a criminal indictment—and if the results are glaring (e.g., you killed him), it’s nearly certain.

Knock your attacker over—then keep stomping on him while he’s down and not moving? Bad. Pull a knife and slash—and keep slashing when your assailant pulls away? Uh-oh; now you’re not only breaking the rules, you’re leaving “defensive wounds,” a signature of cuts and marks which forensics experts will use to prove that he was an unwilling victim.

« »
 
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It amazes me that the law presumes that you somehow owe an assailant a "fair fight" if he is unarmed and insists on fighting. One good punch to the throat, eye or groin, even from a smaller person can put you down and render you unable to defend yourself. Visit a Karate class sometimes and you will see that a bare handed strike is more than capable of leaving you totally at the mercy of your attacker who may decide to stomp on your head and neck until you are dead. A criminal assault is not like a sporting event or duel where you agreed to participate and are honor bound to conduct yourself as a gentleman and fight fair. Some aspects of modern self defense law are still based on old dueling codes where rules of honor still applied. There is no honor to defend in a mugging, only your life and the last thing you want to give your assailant is a sporting chance.
 
Ok that guy you "Cosmoline," mentioned is the one who owns that website. I hope he hasn't taken some of Ayaoobs comments "out of context". I will loook into it further and get back here with any findings I can get. He has an email address "mailto:[email protected]", I sure hope that what and who he published is truely the way it was intended to be read.
Here is more stuff I found.
Sources used in gathering the information presented here include:

Articles by Massad Ayoob, originally published in Shooting Industry; most of the 10-part series is available online here: http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?qt=Explaining+the+deadly+force+decision&tb=art&qf=free
A summary by Ron Hartman, from two printed sources, online here: http://tkdtutor.com/07Defense/Laws.htm
Personal remarks made by Marc MacYoung
Personal remarks made by Alain Burrese, Douglas Patt, Toma Rosenzweig, Martin Cooper, MG, and other members of the Animal list email listserv
An online portal for legal texts created by the Legal Information Institute at Cornell Law School, here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/statutes.html
Sincerest thanks to all those listed, as well as to Sidney Oliver and Chele Shepard for volunteer (but excellent, natch) copyediting. Thanks also to Mas Ayoob for his continued, conscientious, and unfailingly correct research and instructional efforts in matters where others dare not tread, or do so poorly.
 
gym,

While you're reading on the subject, take a look at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . Some have come to believe that a doctrine of ADEE is more appropriate for armed citizens, while AOJP is better suited to sworn LEOs. If you need a glossary for the ATSA-speak, see http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5561615&postcount=10 . I saw Skip deliver this lecture, with slides, at a training event a couple of years ago, and it was some of the best training I have ever had.

Re. the things Tuner said above, I agree fully. You might be interested in reading John Farnam's thoughts on the subject at http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html as well. The link dates back to 2003, but Farnam is still teaching essentially the same thing.

It's good to be exploring this sort of thing and thinking about it ahead of time IMHO. It helps a lot to clarify things in your own mind in advance of need.

hth,

lpl
 
Interesting discussion. If I may offer a few points...

AOJ (Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy) speaks to what the assailant is doing. The P element (Preclusion) is separate, as it speaks to what we the defender can be doing. Apples and oranges. Both will be factors, but IMHO don't belong clustered together.

Similarly, I don't see it as AOJ (or AOJP) versus ADEE (Avoid, Disengage, Escape, Evade). They're two different things. While, again, AOJ focuses on what the assailant is doing, ADEE focuses on what the defender is doing. More apples and oranges.

Finally, I don't see the preclusion element requiring the defender to give money to the robber (or sex to the rapist for that matter). The active dynamic in such a case is that the assailant is putting the defender's life in jeopardy in the demand for money. Deadly force is used to stop the threat to life, not the taking of the money.

Cordially,
Mas
 
Arizona has had some recent changes to the self defense laws. Most notably, the burden of proof has been moved from the defendant to the state. We, the state (LEO's, prosecutors) now have to prove someone was NOT defending themselves. Before, the defendant had to prove they were defending themselves.

For the law abiding citizen, this is fantastic. Most of the "what-if" questions go away. They only have to ask themselves one question, "Am I afraid for my life or someone elses?" If a "reasonable person" agrees that you would be scared, you are justified in self defense. There is some potential for abuse, especially in regards to assaulting an officer. However, for the average law abiding citizen who wants to protect their own life along with loved ones, this makes it much easier (legally) to do so.
 
There are a few errors there, and since I have seen Mas at some IDPA events here in Florida, I think he may even live in the area. For that reason, I think a look at Florida Law is appropriate here:

Error 1: You may only use lethal force to respond to lethal force. In Florida, a person can also use deadly force to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A forcible felony is defined as: treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Error 2: A person can be using deadly force without a weapon, and without disparity of force coming into play. Deadly force is defined as force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. A non-trivial scar or a broken arm can be considered great bodily harm.

Another point: Drawing a weapon without firing it is considered to be non-lethal force under the laws of Florida. So, in a situation where you are allowed to employ non-lethal force (say, a guy threatening to beat you up) it is legal to draw a weapon. If he then attacks me and is trying to gain control of my weapon, then he has just escalated the level of force to the lethal level.
 
I have trouble believing that Mas, or any police officier, would tell us that we are somehow required to hand over are valuables or risk prosecution. Even worse, to say that you can't in anyway fight back to not only being robbed, but being threatened with bodily harm is ridiculous.

And it's a wide generalization to say that "the law" values life over property. Doesn't Texas have laws saying you can use deadly force to protect your property.

This post contains alot of good information, but there's enough wrong (or incomplete) information to make it dangerous

I agree on this. There was an article I read a while back, written by Mas in American Handgunner magazine that dealt with a guy who worked in a store. I don't remember the specifics, but it boiled down to the BG shooting the worker with a .22 revolver (in the head, no less), taking the guy's wallet, and fleeing.

Luckily the worker survived, remembered that his wallet had his driver's license, which had his address, which was where his sick mother was staying. The worker feared for his mother's life, retrieved his firearm, and shot the BG. No charges were filed against the worker.

[RANT]
Most of us keep things in our wallets that we'd rather not have end up in wrong hands. Sure, credit cards can be readily canceled, but what about social security numbers (even if you don't keep a social security card in your wallet, other things have them printed. My military ID is a perfect example)? Home addresses? Also, some of us have concealed weapons permits. What does that tell the BG about us? They can potentially visit our residence while we aren't home, and have access to at least one firearm and other valuables. Family pictures? There are some scum of the earth people out there. I don't want somebody who would rob me to have a picture of my kid and wife and a home address to go with it.

[/RANT] (Tired, and just got off a long shift at work, so please forgive me.)

Just something to think about.
 
It’s interesting now with the internet to be able to get valuable information in such a simple manner. When I got my NYC carry in 1974, there was little or no real info on most if not all of this stuff. I remember my final interview at 1 PP. I was told a couple of things, one was that if I encountered an act of forced sodomy or arson, I could shoot the perpetrator. “some things you don’t forget”. And I was asked about the use of Equal and Deadly force. And if I understood the concept. They tended to use “deadly” and “equal” back then. That was more or less it. The 6 months leading up to the interview were another story letters from banks and accountants etc. I think you should always be prepared for whatever may come, and knowledge is power. They pretty much lumped everything together back then. Upon moving to FL and giving up my license in NYC, I found it difficult to even conceive of a state where everyone who wanted a gun could have one. Even though I had been in FL many times and had friends who lived here, I couldn’t get over my first gun show in Ft Lauderdale. I was amazed that none of these folks had to do very much, other than apply for a concealed license, or just go and buy a handgun with a drivers license. The way that states do things are much like the older generation talking about rock music in the late 50’s, you’re going to get in trouble if you listen to that stuff.

Some parts of the country would like the population to feel that way about guns, when in fact it all comes down to common sense most of the time with anything. If you can leave a gunfight before it starts then you are much better off all around. If you have to fight, then do so like your life depended on it, because it does.

Having been involved in more than my fair share of violent confrontations in my life, I found each one to be very different than I imagined they would be. First off they just happen and you are there without choice, you generally don’t get to see them about to happen, especially if you are the target of said act. So knowing what is legal and what isn’t is good mental exercise and could save you a lot of time and money for sure. I won’t get into specifics but I feel than most who have carried for more than a short time, can attest to how they have avoided having to use their weapon more than the other way around.

What I find irritating is when someone makes a statement about what they would have done if this or that happened to them. And the sometimes reckless regard for human life when silly things are said in a discussion about what someone did or didn’t do and what someone else thought they should have done. I am from the school of thought that you are the one who has to live with the result of your actions forever, so having the ability to ask Mr Ayoob or several of you guys who really know your stuff is a big plus to me and the members of this forum, and should be taken advantage of . I for one appreciate any constructive advice from anyone who has information that can be of value in such an important area of our daily lives.
 
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