Let's talk about mass public shootings...

[Jim March]

Whether or not this latest clown was a "Jihad Joe" is in my opinion irrelevant. My fear is that it will "attract" the real thing as he's proven what a single nutcase with basic pistols can do.

In other words, I think he'll be emulated - in schools, shopping malls, God only knows.

The US is going to have to toughen up for these. It means more CCW, fewer disarmament zones. It may not happen as a result of this incident, but somewhere around the second through fourth copycat and (with luck) one or two failures due to armed citizen intervention, I think it's coming.

So. What then? What should our response be as CCW holders? How do we identify friend or foe?

One POSSIBLE solution: don't advance. Take a position and hold it with force. Those clearly on defense are the good guys, those on offense, shoot 'em.

If you have to move towards the sound of the gunfire, fine, do it holstered. That would force attention to and use of cover or at least concealment, which is really more important on the advance than covering fire, which I would argue is a bad idea.

The VAST majority of us aren't going to have enough ammo for "covering fire" and it's a bad idea in public crowds regardless. Dunno 'bout y'all but I often walk out of the house with a snub 38 and a speedloader, and 3 shots of 22Mag from a minirevolver as last-ditch backup. I can still make placed shots with it, in fact I've practiced on 50 yard targets fairly often. But covering fire is out of the question.

If you have to pursue trouble, stalk it - hunt it, don't charge blindly with guns drawn and/or blazing.

Upshot: if you're on defense, or ONLY shooting at a clear threat, you're not going to draw my fire and I'd appreciate the same courtesy. Foolproof? Of course not, but it's *something* along the lines of a plan, right?

Am I full of it or onto something?

 

[KD5NRH]

Look for the guy who isn't expecting armed resistance.

 

[crashresidue]

Cheers,

I agree - "hunker down and defend!" Your responsibliity is, as I see it - to defend the ground you're standing on and the people with you. If you're in the open - well, it's up to the individual to decide what he's/she's comfortable with, but a "rambo" isn't an option to me.

cr

 

[Jim March]

Let's add another twist. If it really is "Osama Yo Mama's buddies" there may be more than one. Maybe a lot more.

Take the example of the typical cross-shaped shopping mall, where multiple "arms" reach a central point. I can just see one or more bogeys coming in each arm and working towards each other for max chaos. In that event, breaking open just one end-point allows a massive number of sheeple to flee out that "arm". And then trouble will eventually chase them in.

The good news is, most malls I've been in have all sorts of hard cover scattered around. A stone planter 4ft across means two layers of stone of some sort with dirt in the middle...goodie, that ought to stop AK fire if need be. All you need to do is stall, not "win". If you're not having a totally stinky day, and start to hold a choke-point, *maybe* either renta-cops or another permitholder or three might join in. Get a couple, three guys plus holding one "arm", and it starts to look survivable mebbe.

Next problem...the cops charging in, probably from your rear. Oh joy. Shout "CCW holder!"? Or "help"? Or ???

 

[LAK]

Right on so far ; with an emphasis on not running into trouble - but rather stalk it as you put it.

I am perhaps more concerned with what might happen after a forceful intervention than before or during. I certainly do not want to become another Richard Jewell. Were I to put someone(s) down, I would not let anyone near them unless they had local city, county, state etc medical or police agency credentials. And I would get their name(s) off those credentials and make an effort to identify and retain useful witnesses.

I like to carry a small camera and audio recorder. They make for a potentially useful record in a great many circumstances; traffic accidents are perhaps the most commonly useful scenario. I would shoot some photos of the overall scene ASAP - including closeups of the downed subjects and if possible give the camera to the better half if present, or other friend, and have them take it to a safe location (develope the film if needed), and transfer copies to several trusted persons and locations. This might be a trump card if anyone(s) tries to make me a fall guy later on.

In a mall or other large facility chances are there will be inhouse cameras. If asked later why I passed anything off to someone who left the scene I would simply tell the truth; it is a photograpic record of the scene details for my own file, for record. Police agencies do this as routine to record crime scene details, and there is no reason Joe Citizen is not entitled to protect himself using a similar means.

If you have a cell phone and the incident has progressed long enough to where it is obvious the local police have already been called, I would recommend calling your own voicemail number and letting it run. This is another way to establish an audio record of the incident.

So if you decide to intervene with force, someone(s) might perceive you as the badguy and interfere, attempt to interfere, or use force against you at the vital moment. Or some private or public professional (in or out of uniform) might lay eyes on you and make a similar extrapolation. If there appears to be any sane, mature persons immediately around you that can see what is going on when the time comes to act, you might indicate precisely at the shooter(s) and then impress upon them with something like "watch my back!" - so as they might intervene on your behalf should some well-meaning person make the wrong judgement of you and your actions in the vital moments.

As for covering fire; maybe - maybe not. Covering for who? Suppressive fire might be useful in any lethal engagement. This is impossible to foresee, just as it is impossible to foresee whether one might have to engage a badguy at three yards - or fifty yards.

Ammo? My High Power holds anywhere between 13 and 15 depending on which mags I use. Two mags total means a minimum of 27. Add another and it's 40. Not necessary, statistically averaged - but statistical averages are not what I want to stake my life on given a choice. A "standard" 1911 .45 will be 15 and 22 respectively. If Taking to the streets daily with nothing more than a five-shot revolver or a six-shot pistol is not foolish at all IMO - it is however, like many things, a calculated risk.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[Jim March]

Closest anybody in my family ever faced to such a thing:

My kid brother, then late teens, was invited to an Oakland (California) rap concert at the stadium. Not normally his thing but "free tickets", what the heck. Boy was that a bad idea. One of the local gangs decided to start a riot, headed around the upper balcony about 50 strong, unarmed (metal detectors) but just rolling people down the stairs for fun was about to get somebody killed.

My brother's pretty big, his friend was bigger. Those two, some guards and some other random guys managed to hold an aisleway about eight feet wide blocking the jerks from getting to their section, allowing evacuation behind 'em. Sort of a "Thermopylae with fists and boots" situation, they were outnumbered at least five or six to one but held out long enough to evac those unable to fight back and then fought an orderly retreat. By holding to a staircase area, they could move better than the gangbangers could hop seats. They even got their injured out with them...it was a surprisingly well coordinated thing, you know?

That was just random strangers, mixed races, ages, even a couple of gals, some guards thrown in but mostly just plain folks. And it happened because a few (my brother included I'm happy to say) first decided to hold the chokepoint, and that convinced enough others it was doable to actually get it done.

---

Same thing here. If you've cleared an exit and the sheeple are streaming out past you and can see you looking kinda grim, hunkered behind a planter reloading a wheelgun or something...any CCWers streaming out in that crowd might just buck up enough to hold that point. Toss in a Glocker here, some dude with an old Colt there, it starts to look somewhat this side of The Alamo, y'know?

 

[Jim March]

Lak: you're absolutely right about a snub being a calculated risk. I can actually shoot some distance with mine, but that's kinda unusual.

One thing I like about snubs though is that in a non-terrorist situation, if things are very close and fast (typical armed robbery stuff) the snub has advantages I like. Fast into action, hard to grab away from you, hits hard enough with the right ammo and can't go out of battery on muzzle contact. Under 5ft range the "lowly" snub is in my opinion the dominant weapon type this side of a full-auto subgun or something.

But it ain't the optimum medicine for "Jihad Joe". Not totally useless, but not a top pick.

 

[Caimlas]

I was thinking about going from 9mm to .40S&W because of the caliber size increase. This most recent shooting has me strongly reconsidering for a number of reasons.

Frankly, the first is because I suspect another incident like this will occur sooner than most people think, and that when it does happen, it's not likely going to be the "lone wolf" type of event. We're likely to see a Beslan style event sooner than later, which means multiple assailants from multiple approach vectors. That means multiple targets, coming from multiple directions, requiring more firepower. I'm not going to be stuck against someone with an AK with only 10 or 12 rounds of .40SW than I am going to be stuck with 7+1 of .45ACP (or twice or three times that). Yeah, I'm a good shot, and making shots count is important - but I like the odds of 15 9mm to 7 .45, even if I've got to hit him twice to the one in .45. You could be up against one guy with a single pistol, or 5 or more guys with rifles, and in the later case, every round is going to matter.

Secondly, re: the topic of the tread: I'm going to hunker down, more than likely. Yes, if I see the sons of Sam in my immediate vicinity, I'm going to try and 'get them'. But in reality, a person is NOT going to be able to know who the shooter is beforehand - you won't know who you're looking for. It could be your "typical Arab" in street clothes, but it could also be a group of guys dressed in security guard or police uniforms. Furthermore, the police and security are in the exact same situation, and (at least in my case) they're not going to know if you're a friendly. Some of you have a "civilian" look (beer gut, older, women, etc.) but I'm a young male; I sometimes wear BDUs "just because" - they're cheap and durable - and I could easily be mistaken as the shooter, as such. You simply don't know, and taking the calculated risk isn't worth it in my opinion.

As for what I'd do, I'd likely try and hunker down with as many people as I can in a store - preferably one with a rear/outdoor exit in the event that fleeing is necessary (again, you don't know if they've got shooters outdoors as well). A defensible position is much more preferable, because at least then you've got somewhere you know is secure to retreat to, and it offers a bit of concealment. In the event of a mall, I imagine a jewelry store would be a good retreat, and in any school or office building, most any room would do (they could climb out windows). As a non-LEO civilian, it's your responsibility to not get in the way of the organized law enforcement when they come through to do their job (which is, in most cases, just clean-up), but you don't want to potentially put your - and their - lives in danger by getting in the way. I don't doubt that a SWAT team will consider any and all armed people within a mall during a shooting as being 'hostile', judging by how past mall shootings have gone down afterwards (forceful detainment of anyone in the mall afterwards, etc.)

Just my .02c

 

[October]

If you have a cell phone and the incident has progressed long enough to where it is obvious the local police have already been called, I would recommend calling your own voicemail number and letting it run. This is another way to establish an audio record of the incident.

Wouldn't it make more sense to call 911? Those calls are recorded (or are you worried that they might "lose" the tape if they decide to prosecute you?) and you can keep the dispatcher continually updated on the status of the situation. That means that you can get a description of what you are wearing to the responding police, and precisely where you are located. Pretty important if the tactical situation requires you to move.

 

[foghornl]

Good ideas and suggestions, Jim.

I am NOT going to go charging in, gun blazing, hell-bent for Glory. That is the second-best way to insure leaving in a large zippered bag.

If it comes down to that type of scenario, yeah, I'll be one of the guys helping hold the chokepoint. But since I don't have L3A or higher body armor, and some sort of long gun under my shirt, again, I am NOT 'Leading The Charge of The Light Brigade.'

Those huge honkin' concrete plant pots make fairly decent cover in the middle of the mall....although, beware...they may only be concealment. Some of those are filled with foam, packing peanuts, etc, and a plastic plant. Some of those pots also only cheap thin plastic, made to look like concrete, stone, etc.

I'll be packing 22 rounds of .45ACP, ala Rem Golden Sabres, launched from a Springfield 1911A1 (GI-45) platform. So, If I choose to do "The Charge of The Light Brigade", yeah, I'll be ammo dry pretty fast.

Something else, too...since I am resposible for the end results of every round I let loose, yeah, I'll be very cautious about my fire.

 

[Lonestar]

Unless your talking about a terrorist attck, Spree shooters are usually alone, just shoot the guy walking around shooting unarmed people. What other strategy do you need?

 

[Zero_DgZ]

I think there's a vaild point in making it very much known that you're the good guy. I think if you start giving out some common sense sort of orders - not bossing people around, but things like "get behind cover," or "get behind me" when you draw and people will start figuring out that you're on their side.

Begrudgingly, I admit that this is probably a good application for one of those tin CCW badges that everyone hates so much. I'd doubt it would make the cops think twice about you but it would probably make other permit holders and civilians refrain from shooting you, beating you up, or telling the cops to take you down instead.

 

[geekWithA.45]

As a guy with a gun, people are going to naturally percieve you to be a threat, unless you establish yourself as a leader and protector.

Your voice is an important tool in this regards, firm, authoritative, short and specific directives are the down payment on establishing your leadership and protective goals. "Remain calm!" "Get Down!" "Run that way!" "Out the door!" "You! Find the back exit...the rest follow!"


"Retreat covered by gunfire" is probably your first choice of strategy, followed by "Forcibly hold a position" that creates a safe buffer behind you. Indeed, stalking is a last choice.

Above all, cover and concealment!

 

[John Hicks]

I gotta agree with Geek here. Cover and concealment and identify yourself as a protector and leader with your actions. Getting in front of potential victims and covering their escape and so forth.

But make no mistake, if you find yourself in this situation surprise and evasion are probably your only assets. Stalking, cover fire -- these are things for people who train together.

Chances are, you'll see things go bad and react quickly, or hear bad things coming and guard the door.

And remember, when the cavalry arrives, that weapon better be in the holster or on the ground.

jh

 

[Jim March]

Lonestar:

I'm assuming the following:

1) Actual terrorists (those organized at least as well as the "insurgents" in Iraq) want to attack the US. Fairly good bet, that.

2) They watch TV too and saw what one nut with a 9mm could do.

Upshot: 3+ goblins with baclavas and AKs scare me a LOT more than a "spree shooter" such as we recently saw.

Now add some psychology.

Terrorists could bring Iraq-style IEDs or whatnot to the US. Or homicide bombers in explosive vests. But I think if possible, they'd rather shoot victims than blow them up.

See...IEDs and bomb-vests are what you have to do against a stronger enemy. They have to acknowledge that US troops are stronger. They don't LIKE admitting that, but they've had to.

In their ideology, the US civilian population is extremely weak. And truth be told, by and large they're right...the VA shooter just proved it in spades. The bravest guy there was an unarmed Jew, now dead. They'll take note of that too, bet on it.

My conclusion is that bombing the US civilian population would be taken as a sign they are too tough to confront, which is where the Israeli civilian population is now. Shooting the US civilian population en mass proves said population to be weak, weaker than the Israelis.

Which do you think they'll prefer?

 

[PPGMD]

I was thinking about going from 9mm to .40S&W because of the caliber size increase. This most recent shooting has me strongly reconsidering for a number of reasons.

For conealed carry it isn't that bad of a loss. In the case of the gun I use for concealed carry it's the loss of 2 rounds with the gain of greater knock down power. I am also thinking about picking up a different concealed pistol (a P2000SK) where the loss would only be a single round from 9mm to .40.

 

[kellyj00]

In my case, I think the public has a right to concealed carry just like I do. Sorry if you don't have a gun/permit when it hits the fan.

I really don't think it's a good idea to drop and start yelling to a mass of confused people. I know I don't stand a match against a guy with an AK if all I've got is a pistol. The malls here don't allow concealed carry, so I'm about certain they're prime candidates to be shot up by a loco. I really hate to say it, but there's more reason to avoid a non-ccw participating business than the fact that you don't agree with them... the fact that they become prime targets.

A mall has many entrance/exits, not ideal for a Jihad Joe. They aren't into escaping as history points out... and we all know how much planning they had in the 9/11 attacks.

re the topic: Just make sure you know where the exits are, know who you are responsible for and keep that #1. It's not a good idea to stand your ground if you think you can avoid it. In a bank robbery, no matter what the bad guy has or is wearing, more than likely you'll make it out alive. Even the sadistic nutjobs covered in body armor and full-auto AK's that robbed that bank in Los Angeles didn't shoot a single person inside the building, they just wanted the money and to get away. Now, if you were to draw your weapon or even try anything defensive you probably would've gotten shot in that situation.

Gas station robbery... same thing. More than likely just a thug needing drug money, couldn't care less about whether you live or not...but he doesn't want a murder charge for nothing, so just as long as you cooperate, the evidence shows that he's probably not sadistic enough to want you dead for any reason, just to get enough cash for his 'fix'. So I'd just put my hands in the air and give him my wallet if he's got a gun and I don't have a sure chance of shooting him. Also consider, he's probably got a getaway driver who likes his dearly departed robber drug-buddy a lot more than you did...so you may end up pissing off a whole nest of hornets if the driver cares enough to come in for either vengance or to see what's taking so long.... and I'll almost guarantee he's got a weapon too.

Besides, there's less paperwork if you just hide you and your family under a rack of women's clothing and keep an eye out for an open shot. Odds are though, they're not going to search each and every rack of clothes looking for victims.

for me, a ccw is last resort only. I do not draw my weapon unless I intend to fire, and I don't fire unless I intend to kill.

 

[karz10]

I was thinking the same thing about these 'troubled teens / lone gunmen' scenarios, that they could be a test case for a far worse threat.

I was thinking about terrorism in other parts of the world, and the whole suicide bomber situation. I wondered why they used bombs. I speculated that in many parts of the world, where they're from and trained anyway, that there are many people around them that are probably armed, so if they started shooting people, they may not get very far. They're not afraid of the dying part, they're gonna do that anyway, so why not just sit there and open fire on people? The only logical answer I could come up with was that they assumed they would be killed by someone else before they took out maximum numbers. Some of these bombs only kill and injure a few people.

I really hope that we wake up as a country and realize that if we can't prevent or contain the likes of this student shooter in an environment like this, before he kills a few dozen people, then how exactly are we going to prevent or contain a meticulously planned attack from a serious terrorist threat?

While one might argue that international terrorists could be prevented from entering the country, I think we're all aware of the issues there. Assuming they got here or were home grown, unless we as a society make decisions individually, and collectively, to band together to prevent evil from prevailing, then we are going to have a serious problem. I realize this may be preaching to the choir to some extent, but I hope we can get the right message out and influence those around us to take their personal safety and security more seriously.

I don't want to see this kind of thing continue, or worse yet, escalate.

Karz

 

[Jeff White]

You guys read too much Tom Clancy

Let's stop the panic and the preparations for doomsday. There is not going to be a sudden upsurge in mass public shootings. A mass public shooting is a rare event in our society and will most likely remain a very rare event. There is no need for the CCW community to make any other preparations other then those they normally take. There is no public safety aspect to having a concealed carry permit. It does not deputize you. It's not a peace officers commission and as far as I know, no state issues blue tights and a red cape with their permits. If you want to be a responder then I suggest that you sign up into law enforcement or the military. There is a shortage of qualified law enforcement applicants now and the military is taking non-prior service recruits up to age 42.

Unless you are police or military you are under no obligation to respond in a mass shooting situation and I'm not going to let another 100+ post thread about if you should or shouldn't act get started. The decision on acting or not is one that can only be made by the person on the scene at that time.

The conditions that would allow a terrorist organization to recruit and control subjects who would make these suicidal attacks either with small arms or explosives do not exist in this country. The terrorists who conduct these suicidal attacks are recruited from the ghettos and refugee camps. We don't have large ghettos of disaffected Muslims or refugee camps for them to recruit from. In fact according to the US Census Bureau, the average income of Arab Americans is $53,377 compared with the average for all American which is $43,808. The median income is $39580 for Arab Americans compared to $35,225 for all Americans. There is not a sizable Muslim population living in poverty in the US for the terrorist groups to recruit from. If they were to smuggle suicide attack recruits across the border, they would be extremely hard to control once they saw how we live here.

Suicide terrorists are recruited on a two track process. The first track singles out the potential suicide attacker when he/she joins a political organization as a fighter or a militant. The recruiter accompanies the recruit through all phases of training and spiritual preparation. In the second track, all of the operational planning for the mission is accomplished and the recruiter and the other support people stay with the future suicide attacker through the entire process. You are looking at several support people in the plot for every suicide attacker who would shoot up the mall or blow him/herself to pieces along with several innocents.

While preparing for a suicide attack the attackers go through a crystallization process where they are placed in situations where their lives are in danger while instructors analyze their reactions including facial expressions and body language. There is an indoctrination and purification process process that continues throughout the training that has the recruits look at films and videos showing the atrocities committed by the target group. These films focus on how the target group abuses Muslim women and children. There are also films showing torture and reading assignments of books like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. There are lectures and a many prayers. During this time the recruit is isolated from his/her family and friends, they simply disappear.

In the Middle East this recruiting process is started in childhood at children's summer camps. For more information I suggest you read:

Army of Roses by Barbara Victor
The New Terrorism by Walter Laqueur
Why Terrorism Works by Alan M Dershowitz
Unholy War by John L Esposito
The War Against America by Laurie Mylroie
American Jihad by Steven Emerson
My Life is a Weapon by Christopher Reuter
A Law Enforcement Guide to Understanding Islamist Terrorism by First Capitol Technologies

If you can explain to me how such an operation on a large enough scale to be an effective terrorist attack could be conduct in the continental US at this time or in the near future, I'll reopen this thread. In the meantime it's closed as being unrealistic.

Jeff