Lever action newbie questions, help me choose a lever gun...

[TSH77769]

I want a lever gun as a general purpose woods gun. I want to match it with a revolver. It needs to be either a .44 Mag or .454 casull with me currently leaning heavily towards the .44 mag (partly so that I can run .44 special through it for people at home). I do not have the matching revolver at this time, so it could go either way in the end though. I would prefer it to be stainless steel (a priority item) and have a 16" barrell. This is NOT for cowboy action shooting, just for carrying while hiking, camping, and the like. I would also prefer a curved or pistol grip (not a big deal though).

As far as I know, nothing meets all of my criteria and only the following are even close...

Puma/Rossi/Legacy 92 in .44 mag or .454 stainless steel and 16" barrell. Straight grip though. So far so good, majority of criteria are met, however, I am VERY concerned about the quality and strength of this design, especially being that they are foreign made and if something went wrong, who is going to fix or repair it, or if it blows up of its own fault rather than mine, how do I sue some overseas company if I lose an eye or some such thing. It is the only .454 lever gun at all as far as I know, but in a way that worries me even more, I mean how come no one else makes one? Is it unsafe? I am also having GREAT difficulty even locating any at the dealer level (as opposed to online auctions or private individuals).

Winchester Trapper .44 mag and 16" barrell. No longer produced if I understand correctly. No stainless. No .454. Known US manufacturer of good repute and quality. Found one locally, 94AE, (at FFL) in 95-98% for $275, could probably talk him down to $250. Has cross bolt safety and saddle ring. VERY tempted.

Marlin 1894 SS. .44 mag, stainless, 20" barrell. Well, it is .44 mag and stainless and it is a known US manufacturer of good repute and quality. EASILY obtained. I understand that it is possible though expensive to change it to a pistol grip (around $200).

BTW, I do not care about the much hated manual safeties, yes, they are ugly and unecessary, but just because they are there doe not mean that you have to use them and this gun is just a tool for me.

Of the options above, what would be your recommendation and why? What other options are there, am I missing anything.

Thanks.

Tsh77769

 

[rbernie]

For all of the hoopla surrounding have a rifle and revo sharing a common chambering, I've never really found that capability all that useful to me (if only because the bullets that work well in the revo at lower speeds don't fare that well at higher speeds in the rifle, and vice versa). In the end, my woods carry package is usually an old Marlin 30-30 (pre-safety) cut down to 16" and a S&W Model 65 (ss 357 with 3" barrel). The reason that I point this out is that I can buy both of these today for just a few beans more the cost of one NIB Marlin 1895 in stainless steel...

Just thinkin' out loud....

 

[roscoe]

Who says the short .44 Winchester is no longer made?

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=094&cat=003C

 

[Pointman]

I have a Puma and a Win94AE both in .45Colt. The Puma, being the '92 action, is a bit more compact in the receiver area but is also a bit harder to load due to the smaller gate. The Puma groups a bit more tightly but at the range of these cartridges its not an issue.

There are a few companies importing the Rossi and a few really good gunsmiths who specialize in them so repair/parts/custom work is no problem for the Rossi made guns.

If I had to choose between the Rossi and the Winchester I'd be in trouble.

Overall the quality differences between the Marlin, Rossi and Winchester isn't an issue. Each has their merrit so go with the one that you like best and fits the most of your requirements. I think only Rossi and Marlin offer stainess.

 

[TSH77769]

It is interesting and good that the trapper is still made. However, I am still no closer to a solution ;-)!!

As far as the matched ammo for the revolver and rifle go it IS a requirement for me.

Thanks for the encouragement on the Rossi's. In my case it is definitely a fear of the unknown. I am very knowledgeable about guns in general and semi-auto defensive weapons in particular. However, lever and pump rifles are something that I have never known much about. Not for lack of interest obviously but it is a recent development.

Tsh77769

 

[TSH77769]

Anyone have any idea if the scout mount for the 94 will fit on the Rossi/Puma 92's?

Also, do we know if Rossi/Puma has a 16" stainless .44? I have been looking and am not able to locate one. I have found stainless .44's but non with a 16" barrell.

Tsh77769

 

[SamlautRanger]

Davidsons (www.galleryofguns.com) has some special made for them and allocated Marlin 1894s in SS with laminated stock and 16.5" barrells in .44 mag.

 

[Selfdfenz]

I can't attest to having read this thread with great detail but if shooting 44 spls in a 44 mag is a consideration I believe you can fire 45 Colt rounds in the 454 Cas.

I believe the Puma clone of the 92 is, or at least was chambered in the 454 Cas. Obviously the manufacturer must feel the action can take a good licking and hang together.

Somewhere on the Net I read an item by Paco Kelly indicting the Rossi/Puma/all-the-rest that sell this action under different brandings are pretty tough and much superior to the original Winny actions in that respect.

Best ,
S-

 

[TSH77769]

"Davidsons (www.galleryofguns.com) has some special made for them and allocated Marlin 1894s in SS with laminated stock and 16.5" barrells in .44 mag."

Really? WOW!! Sounds great!!

I'm going to look into that.

Tsh77769

 

[TSH77769]

I found the davidson limited edition Marlis on the last page (page 7) of their limited edition section. HOLY COW!!! YEE HAW!!

Now, I wonder how much they cost? Money might be an issue.

Tsh77769

 

[TSH77769]

BTW, why does it seem that Winchester 94's always hold one or two more rounds in the same size as a Marlin?

For example, the Winchester 94 trapper with a 16" barrell and full length tube are listed as having a 9rd tube capacity whereas the 16" Marlins listed at Davidsons have a 7 round tube capacity with afull length tube. Very weird. I really don;t care about one or two extra rounds in a lever gun for field work. But it just seems so odd that I am rather curious.

Does anyone happen to know what the capacity is for the 16" Puma 92's?

Tsh77769

 

[DHart]

I've got all of the rifles that you mentioned and they're all great. The Puma .454 is a great rifle if you get a good one. I got two lemons, but Davidsons replaced both of them and the third one is great

After firing a few .454 loads I have relegated the rifle to be a .45 Colt rifle. I found .454 to be a lot hotter than I need nor desire.

The Winchester 94 Trapper in .45 Colt and .44 mag are great... I have both. They're wonderful rifles, good quality, readily available, awesome walnut stocks! I'd stick with .45 Colt or .44 mag as the .357 version has been known to be a little less reliable than the big bore versions.

My Marlin 1894SS is great,

but I find the 20" barrel a little long for my liking... I'm a Trapper guy. So the limited edition 16.5" barrel version is very appealing, but you'll probably have to spend about $575 to $600 for one!

All in all, unless you reload, I'd buy a Winchester 94 in .44 magnum, then get yourself a Redhawk or a good S&W 29 or 629 as a companion revolver. If you reload, I'd pick .45 Colt as the caliber... I just love 45's.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I personally prefer Marlins. I just think they are better guns.

If you're going to be that spoecific about what you NEED in a gun, you can't complain that it costs more money. FWIW, if I were you, I'd get one of the Davidson's Limted Edition Marlins, and pay to have it changed to a pistol grip, or stick with a straight grip if you don't absolutely have to have a PG.

I'm not sure if a PG conversion is even available for the Winchester or Puma, and as stated, the Winchester doesn't come in stainless at all.


As for the pistol, the S&W 29, 629 and Ruger redhawk, super redhawk are all fine pistols, but for a gun that matches the era of the lever action carbine, it's hard to beat a single-action Ruger.

 

[Colt46]

Rossi is great

I got a '92 carbine in .45 Colt and it's a joy. Accurate, handy, and never given me a problem.

 

[WT]

I gather pistol sized cartridges don't always work well in a Winchester 94 series. More investigation is certainly required.

I like Winchesters. However, mine are rifle cartridge.

Someplace out there is a lever gun website with loads of info.

 

[DHart]

Typically the big bore handgun calibers run great in the Win 94 (I have a 94 in .45 Colt and one in .44 mag. and they're both wonderful). Some of the 94's in the smallbore .357 have had some feeding issues, but many people have 94's in .357 that run flawlessly. The Marlin 1894's tend to run very well, but have their own peculiarities as well. I like both brands, but really prefer the size, shape, look, and feel of the Winchester. The Marlins have a chunkier feel and the Winnies have a slimmer, sleeker feel. They're both good guns, however. Funds allowing, get both!

 

[TSH77769]

DHart, YOU are THE man!! Very nice collection and thanks for the reference pics.

If I was going to spend the money to get one of the limited edition Marlins (I probably won't, too much money right now, I'm looking for a used gun for $$$ reasons, and there aren't any used limited editions that just came out), I would not bother having it converted to pistol grip on account of the beautiful grey laminate stock.

TED

 

[TSH77769]

BTW, anyone have any idea what the Puma 92's run?

Also, I see that there is a 16" stainless Puma 92 in .454, is there also a 16" stainless Puma in .44? I don't seem to be able to find any info on a 16" .44 mag Puma 92, maybe there isn't one?

TED

 

[el44vaquero]

Another vote for Rossi

I have several Rossi Levers. I started out with a .357 and followed it up with 3 .44 mags. They are fine rifles. I'd take a Rossi .357 over the Marlin .357. The. .454 looks like the next one on my "have to have" list.

 

[DHart]

One limiting factor is that there are really very few options for Trapper length lever rifles... (Trappers are my favorite, dang it. The 20" barrels just feel way too long for my preferences.) The Winchester 94 Trappers are the most readily available and are fairly economically priced, especially if you get one of the economy versions which doesn't have the walnut stock. Big 5 Sporting goods often has these. But the walnut stocks are simply magnificent in their beauty and quality, so if you can spend the extra bucks for the regular 94 Trapper, you'll get the walnut.

Marlin Trappers are rare, rare birds.... very hard to find... and costly. Closest thing they have thaf's readily available (besides the costly special edition, which isn't available apparently, for some reason - either sold out or not yet in) is the 1894C in .357 mag which has an 18.5" barrel. These are nice rifles. Only thing I don't like about Marlins is the chunky forearm. But they are a breeze to clean.

Puma/Rossi 92 Trappers are very hard to find as well. I love my Legacy Puma .454, but I don't know what the current availability is on Puma Trappers... hopefully someone else knows the current availability on them.

There is one more Trapper and it's the creme de la creme. Not sure if they're still available, but Winchester commissioned Miroku of Japan to make a series of 92's. This is the ultimate pistol cartridge lever rifle. Quality and workmanship are superb and the stocks are exotic. But they're spendy. I was fortunate that CDNN had some for sale for $699.

 

[countertop]

Why not .357 Mag. They are far easier to get a hold of, in a nice full powered magnum load will open up a world of hurt on most things you need to worry about (not bear, but then, neither will a .44) and are available most anywhere. Plus, .38 special is cheap enough that you can practice practice practice and that really is the most important thing.

Finally, police trade in .38/357s are very easy to find at very good prices. Plus, there is already a Winchester 94 Trapper .357mag for sale on The High Road at a great price. It should do you well.

 

[TSH77769]

I probably will eventually get one in .357 but the priority is on .44 or .454 first as I DO live in Alaska.

I think that I would feel comfortable with .44 mag out of a lever gun using specialty ammo such as buffalo bore, garretts, or the recently introduced belt mountain punch bullet (garretts plans to offer loads using these).

I also would like to use .44 special for people, especially from the matching revovler.

Tsh77769

Are the Winchester Miroku's currently available?

Where can I find more info about the economy winchester trapper with the other than walnut stock (I could care less about the cosmetics of it).

 

[DHart]

I'm not sure how much you know about this, but I'll assume you may not know some of this.... with pistol calibers in long barrel guns, you have to be careful the velocity doesn't get pushed out of the "performance envelope" that the bullet itself was designed for.

Some folks think the faster the better, but nothing could be farther from the truth. Bullets are designed for specific tasks, specific amount of expansion and specific amount of penetration, given specific types of targets in mind. What's good for defense against people is usually very poor for defense against large animals.

Penetration is job one. Fairly easy to accomplish with human targets (though clothing differences between summer and winter will change your optimum bullet type and velocity)... and a totally different set of needs with large animals.

An over-pushed bullet tends to overexpand/disintegrate limiting penetration significantly which can have terrible results if you're defending your life against a large animal or human. By reloading you can tailor your loads for the longer 16" barrels and keep the speed of the bullet within the optimum performance envelope of the chosen bullet. You will basically download the round somewhat to compensate for the longer barrel. You might even select a different and longer burning powder for the 16" barrel. Such a load will perform poorly when fired out of a handgun with it's relatively short barrel. There is a lot to learn in this area and it's important stuff.

An over driven .357 bullet can literally disintegrate on the hide of a tough animal, not penetrating at all and doing you no good at all. Carefully select your bullets for the intended target and then drive them at the appropriate speed. For this reason you will probably want to make two different loads, one for the Trapper and a different load for the handgun. I would also suggest using the longer .44 mag cases for your watered down (.44 special range) loads as they will feed better in the lever rifle and you will avoid the residue caused by shooting short cases .44 specials in a gun chambered for .44 mag.

If you have any of the large chain-type sporting goods stores, they sometimes carry the WInchester 94 with plain hardwood stocks instead of walnut. You save about $75 or so, I think. Big 5 Sporting Goods usually has them.

Call Davidsons to inquire about the Win/Miroku 92 Trapper. It's quite possible that they're all gone by now though. Great gun... beautiful, but expensive.

 

[bubbygator]

Take a look at http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2