Liberal in Canada.... Ban all handguns

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TIZReporter

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The Liberals enacted mandatory licencing for all gun owners, then mandatory registration of all firearms.

Perhaps this Member of Parliament "slipped" in her comments. In other words she expressed that they really want to do.

What it goes to show you is what a slippery slope any form of government controls are on the private ownership of firearms.

Perhaps Canadian gun owners need some help in sending messages to this Liberal to help educate her in the facts that taking away legal guns does not reduce crime but increases crime.

Tiz

Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
EVIDENCE NUMBER 59,
UNEDITED COPY/COPIE NON-ÉDITÉE
Tuesday November 15, 2005

[SNIP]

Hon. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): I'll echo what Minister Cullen has said. I clearly have no sympathy on this issue. I would actually introduce a motion to ban all handguns in Canada, if I thought I could get that somewhere. Clearly, I am not doing that at the moment. I have no sympathy for any of them. Clearly, if you talk with our police officers and live in our cities in some of these areas, they're not driving the cars with the shotguns. They are driving around with handguns. I think the faster and the easier we can do to eliminate handguns completely in this country, we will be far better off. They're far too easy to hide, and they're far too easily stolen. For us to turn around and weaken our own legislation by allowing this, it's clearly a waste of our time. These are weapons that are used to hurt people, and tell me that you want to go target practising, well, I just don't see the benefit of having handguns in the country, period. I think we should just move on to the other major issues that we have on our agenda and not waste any more time on this one.


[SNIP]

Hon. Judy Sgro
Political Affiliation: Liberal Caucus
Constituency: York West
Province: Ontario
Telephone: (613) 992-7774
Fax: (613) 947-8319
Email: [email protected]

Hill Office
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0A6

Constituency Office
2201 Finch Avenue West Suite 22
North York, Ontario
M9M2Y9
 
Remember, registration always leads to confiscation, eventually.

In light of San Francisco this is 100% true

I'm just waiting for the jackboots to start seizing registered MGs. I'd wager there are many owners of $30,000 Thompson SMGs and $10,000 M16s that would rather use them than have them taken without compensation.

You can only push a citizen so far and stealing property worth tens of thousands of dollars is a good way to find out how far.
 
longeyes said:
Canada is a France waiting to happen.

100% right.... If french citizens had handguns they could defend themselves against all gang members who are running many suburbs. And on commuter trains, which are extremely dangerous off hours.....

We need to keep watch in the US. Many liberal want to ban all handguns...
 
International Gun Control

The private ownership of guns is under attack world-wide.

The main target are Americans, but the anti-gun NGOs are aware that a direct attack on American firearm rights would not work, immediately.

Here is a contrast between the pro and anti gun groups at the United Nations:

The International Efforts on Gun Control
November 2005

Firearm owners, and most firearm organizations, rarely comprehend why the bureaucrats, and politicians, they are seeking to influence are able to seemingly brush their points aside.

Many individual firearm owners demand their various national associations lobby their governments to protect, or restore their rights. In Britain, Australia, South Africa, and Canada firearm rights have been restricted, or lost. Efforts to lobby the governments in those countries, by respective associations, have, for the most part failed to influence their respective politicians, or bureaucrats.

Often it appears that the firearm owners in different countries do not communicate effectively. Firearm owners in the United States view firearm laws as the fault of firearm owners and governments in those countries. An overwhelming majority looking at the situation in Canada, Australia, South Africa or Great Britain simply feel such prohibitions could never happen in the United States.

This is a critical error. The target of the anti-firearm groups is firearm legislation in the United States. The strategy of many of the anti-firearm groups however, is not to confront American firearm laws directly, but rather to build on successes in other countries.

That is not to suggest there are no efforts, in the United States, against firearm ownership and use. The current referendum in San Francisco to ban the possession of handguns, along with their sale is an example. Anti-gun efforts in the United States are ongoing.

The anti-gun movement world-wide can point to Australia, Great Britain, Canada and South Africa as examples of their success. To firearm owners in those countries, the successful efforts have lead to increased frustrations.

Their frustration leads to calls for more action. Often, firearm owners demand that their associations take measures which will finally attract the attention of their governments. In more extreme cases, individuals, and groups, will debate and argue about their failings internally, publically, and over the Internet. That this helps their opponents is seemingly lost in the debate.

For example, an increase in violent crime, in Canada, Australia, Great Britain, or South Africa can lead to demands that firearms should be used for self defence. Associations in those countries will often point to the United States, and the growing number of states which have legislation that allows for the concealed carry of firearms for self protection.

Such efforts are most likely to lead to failure in those countries, simply due to the fact the associations demanding these rights has not laid the needed groundwork to succeed.

One must realise that for years, countless published research papers written by scholars who the bureaucrats, and therefore, the politicians have come to trust, have been presented to these governments. These published works claim firearms used for self defense are not an acceptable solution. These research papers, presented internationally have helped these governments in forming their national laws. To expect that those governments would reverse their policies without sufficient reason is simply not realistic.

One of the over-riding reasons for these failures, are that often associations have not commissioned the research needed. This has lead to a far more one-sided debate on the international stage. In associations where the research has been done, the funds to publish and distribute papers are rarely committed.

This leads to a one-sided presentation at the international level, where associations do not have the materials which counter the published literature anti-firearm groups have published and distributed.

This is not to suggest that simply by publishing research papers will halt the movement and successess of the international efforts. The pro-firearm side of the struggle is already years behind in many areas. It will take time for the properly researched materials, and scholars to become known and published.

Perhaps, overall, it is a lack of understanding of the strategies and tactics that are being used in the international effort.

The tactics and strategies utilized by each side of the international Small Arms Light Weapons debate highlight very stark contrasts between each side of the debate.

Here are examples of how IANSA, and other anti-gun NGOs, appear to work:

IANSA strives to hold meetings and seminars. They invite participation from various UN officials, fellow like minded groups, government officials, and policy makers. They seek funding from various governments. They publish reports and white papers from these seminars. The papers that fit their agenda are then presented to governments, other like-minded NGOs and also to the world's governments at international conferences.

The United Nations reports by governments, presented at the 2005 Bi-annual Meeting offer an insight of how such funds are available. The Swedish government funds many such meetings and seminars. From 2000 to 2004, the Swedish government offered over $US 51,831,357 in funding to various meetings, seminars and other efforts to control small arms.

They are also funded through donations. IANSA’s work has been supported by funders including the Governments of UK, Belgium, Sweden and Norway, as well as the Ford Foundation, Rockefeller Foundation, Compton Foundation, Ploughshares Fund, John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, Open Society Institute, Samuel Rubin Foundation and Christian Aid.

The goal of IANSA along with their 600 partner organizations are

* raising awareness among policymakers, the public and the media about the global threat to human security caused by small arms
* promoting the work of NGOs to prevent small arms proliferation through national and local legislation, regional agreements, public education and research
* fostering collaborative advocacy efforts, and providing a forum for NGOs to share experiences and build skills
* establishing regional and subject-specific small arms networks
* promoting the voices of victims in regional and global policy discussions

At the UN this past summer, IANSA issued five published documents. They also assisted in the publishing of papers by other NGOS.

In the three-hour time-block set aside for NGOs, IANSA took two and a half hours of that time. They discussed issues in a panel discussion format, which was certainly well-prepared and presented.

This is not to say that firearms issues are not represented. The pro-firearm NGO, The World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities (WFSA) gave five reports taking about half an hour.

The WFSA is not the only registered NGO at the United Nations. The Sport Shooting Association of Australia (SSAA) and the American National Rifle Association are also registered NGOs, but do not appear to have made presentations at the 2005 meetings in New York.

Most gunowners may not have heard of The World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities. WFSA President Dr. Carlo Peroni describes WFSA saying, "We are an association of associations with approximately 40 member groups. Included among these are most of the larger hunting and shooting groups in the world, as well as firearms-related trade associations. Our associations represent over 55 million hunters and shooters world-wide."

After the 2001 United Nations Meetings, the WFSA American Secretariat, Thomas Mason stated, "We need to have at least 100 groups at the next meeting... but we of the hunting and shooting sports community have got to increase our presence." The WFSA appears to have thirty-one members at present.

"The world's firearms community played a very active role in the July 2001 UN Conference on Small Arms. Hunters, sport shooters, gun collectors, and other parties representing commercial interests worked hard to prevent the conference from overtly opposing the legal civilian possession of firearms. Yet disappointingly, the conference failed to precisely define the focus of UN arms control efforts. In the future, the conference's Program of Action (PoA) should seek practical and realistic measures to address the illegal trafficking in small arms. Meanwhile, the firearms community will continue to independently pursue several of its own regulatory programs."

The WFSA has held seminars on several topics over the past several years. The most recent seminars were on Responsible Care of the Shooting Range Environment, Sept 2005, and on Lead in Ammunition, Sept 2004.

Previous seminars were held on a variety of subjects that appear more directly related to United Nations related efforts.

These included seminars on;

* The Legal, Economic and Human Rights Implications of Civilian Firearms Ownership and Regulation - May 2-3, 2003

* Export, Import and Brokering of Small Arms and Firearms: Identifying the Problems - Partnerships for Solutions" - June 13-14, 2002

* A workshop on "Defining 'Small Arms' as they Pertain to 'Firearms' for the 2001 UN Conference on Small Arms was held at the Imperial War Museum in London, April 27, 2001

* Comment of the Firearms Community on the UN Firearms Protocol Definition of an ''Antique Firearm''

* Technical and Manufacturing Aspects of Firearms Marking In the Context of UN Regulation Efforts


These earlier conferences were commented on in United Nations media releases. Since the May, 2003 seminar, the WFSA have not held any seminars directly related to their United Nations efforts. Neither have almost all of the firearm groups in any of the countries most affected by restrictions on their members firearm ownership.

By contrast, IANSA has through 2005 held seminars or meetings;

* October 19 to 21, 2005; Annual meeting of the International Parliamentary Forum on Small Arms and Light Weapons.

* July 12, 2005, Joint Action on SALW – Parliaments and Civil Society: Side-event at the Biannual Meeting of States 2005

* Women and Firearms, an international campaign

* "Action for Arms Control in a World Awash with weapons", April 15 to 17 2005, Nairobi (Kenya)

* Global Week of Action Against Small Arms 2005, June 6 to 12

The American National Rifle Association (NRA) received NGO status in 1998. The NRA did not make any presentations at the United Nations during the 2005 meetings.

In 2004, NRA participated in a firearm debate between the association's executive Vice President Wayne Lapierre and Rebecca Peters of IANSA.

The SSAA did not participate in the 2005 United Nations Meetings. The SSAA attended a meeting in Papua New Guinea Gun Summit 4-8th July 2005.

The pro-firearm side at the July 2005 United Nations Meetings, presented twelve pages of presentations to the meeting, and no published materials were apparently prepared for these meetings.

This contrasts to the NGOs on the other side of the issue, The IANSA presentation to the meeting included 357 pages of material outlining all aspects of their presentation. This does not include the press releases, or updated materials available online at the IANSA website.

There are experts who state that the foundation of the anti-firearms movement began with a paper by Dr. Arthur Kellermann. Kellermann wrote, in 1986, that a firearm in the home lead to a 42 times greater chance of being a victim of gun violence. While his report has been widely disputed and debate, this report is still used widely today by groups like IANSA.

The next international seminar being hosted by the international firearm community is a seminar on firearm safety. The Coalition of Licenced Firearm Owners in New Zealand, in conjunction with the New Zealand Police and the Mountain Safety Council. It is not known yet if the proceedings of that seminar will be published.

IANSA have unveiled their next effort. They state, "The aim is to increase awareness and gain more support in political circles and to build momentum for the January 2006 UN Preparatory Committee meeting (Prep Com) for the Review of the Programme of Action on Small Arms and Light Weapons.

"The action will be launched on 21 October in Mexico, at the annual meeting of the Parliamentary Forum on Small Arms & Light Weapons, and will run at least until the Prep Com in January 2006. At the Prep Com, the Control Arms Campaign, together with parliamentarians (MPs), will organise a fringe meeting to show governments that elected MPs support the Global Principles for Arms Transfers as well as national initiatives to prevent gun violence through debate and adoption of the Model Parliamentary Resolution on SALW."

The next United Nations meetings on Small Arms and Light Weapons will be held in January 2006.

webpublished with links at http://www.theinfozone.net/salw9.html
 
If the UN wants to stop small arms fueled conflicts around the world REGULATE THE GOVERNMENTS

It is not civilians that sell 100,000 Kalashnikovs to rebels!!!!
 
The United Nations works two ways, first off, there are few means for a United Nations resolution to be enforced on any government.

Therefore, they can pass all the resolutions they wish, however the governments are not affected.

Second, the United Nations works on consensus. All must completely agree for all aspects of agreements to move forward.

In 2001, the United States stopped the major moves of the PoA on Small Arms and Light Weapons.

In 2007, at the next major meetings to continue the program of disarmament, there will be far more work having been completed.

Fighting this process is not simply a matter of telling the UN to "get out of the United States".

The anti-gun groups are like a glacier advancing, it takes tearing down the false research that they have submitted for years to the UN and to civil servants world wide.

When gun owners react in anger against the UN it actually serves to prove to the UN and anti-gun NGOs that they are right, and it helps them to prevent pro-gun groups from attending UN meetings.

Ask yourself, honestly, have you ever looked at the groups working against you at the UN?

How much did you know about the groups working for you at the UN?

TIZ
 
The UN is not just an anti-gun organization. It is an anti-human-rights organization.

It is a trade union for dictators, and the glacial advance pertains to its efforts at worldwide authoritarian rule, not just anti-firearms efforts.

The UN will either implode at some point, or it will succeed in its real goals.

Founding it was an enormous mistake.

Whether the United States can accomplish more by withdrawing or by trying to influence the UN is subject to debate.

But to imagine that the anti-gun UN types are remotely interested in anything but forcing their agendas on the rest of the world is incredibly naive. They're not trying to help individuals to be safer; they're trying to disarm them so that only governments have the power that weapons give them, to commit genocide (Sudan), or to allow it (Rwanda). Their objective is to boost the power of government to oppress and to kill, and nothing else.

Sure, we should be more active in the UN. That's true. But to a degree, that is like trying to reason with Fidel Castro, Moammar Kaddhafi, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, et al. They make up the UN -- well, not Saddam any more.

The only reason to have the UN in New York is to keep our enemies close.

Furthermore, voting to oust any pro-UN representatives in the US is a top priority. Any Senator who objected to John Bolton should be voted out of office.
 
The anti-gun side loves to pull out the "big bad" NRA when ever possible.

It apparently, in their minds, is the ultimate in attack.

In Brazil, there are several lessons to have learned from the referendum, but what exactly are the lessons from San Francisco?

If NRA could "win" in Brazil and not come close in San Fran, what does that say for the fight in the USA?

I am working on several reports and articles on the international fight, the pro-gun side is well behind.

There are allies, as in

http://www.wfsa.net The World Forum, and

http://www.ssaa.org.au The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia.

and of course the NRA.

That said, there is lots of work to be done. The Second Amendment Foundation, the Second Amendment Sisters, International Hunter Education Association, and almost all the various hunting groups, except the Safari Club International are missing in the World Forum.

Gun Owners need voices at the UN, it seems that the World Forum, as one of those voices is "under gunned".

Perhaps people who are members of groups supporting gun rights and hunting should be also asking the groups always asking them for money why they are not working together at the International Level.

I have contacted all of the organizations I carry a membership card from, and sought their reasons for not working in a more unified manner at this effort internationally.

I hope simply that others will join in to asking that question.

TIZ
 
TIZReporter said:
If NRA could "win" in Brazil and not come close in San Fran, what does that say for the fight in the USA?

Never heard of San Francisco, have you? :p

58% is pretty close, actually, considering the numbers of their other votes. Their support of other left-wing issues was more like 80% at the polls this time around. The city is a bizarre far-left echo chamber.

Nevertheless, I fully support what you are doing.
 
There were under 150,000 votes cast.

I don't know the number of eligible voters, but considering that gun owners would be especially motivated, one would hope, in SF to get out and vote.

When one considers how people were attacked, looted and treated in New Orleans, including (until SAF and NRA stepped in) firearm owners, the idea that living in SF and NOT having a means to protect one's self would be simply foolish.

Interestingly the SF City Website doesn't list the voter turnout.

A news article suggests the turnout was "heavy" but what that means is hard to tell.

TIZ
 
TIZReporter said:
There were under 150,000 votes cast.

I don't know the number of eligible voters, but considering that gun owners would be especially motivated, one would hope, in SF to get out and vote.

When one considers how people were attacked, looted and treated in New Orleans, including (until SAF and NRA stepped in) firearm owners, the idea that living in SF and NOT having a means to protect one's self would be simply foolish.

Interestingly the SF City Website doesn't list the voter turnout.

A news article suggests the turnout was "heavy" but what that means is hard to tell.

TIZ

San Francisco isn't a particularly big city. Population 776,000. About 42% of eligible people vote (must be over 18 and citizens).

Like I said, you have to understand San Francisco. The sheer number of simply foolish politicies there is mind-boggling. The city is a campground for bums; law enforcement allows mobs of "protesters" to shut down the city and vandalize businesses; there's a tax on grocery bags; it's illegal to smoke on any outdoor public property, including parks. These are not people who jealously guard their rights; they welcome authoritarian rule. A good number of people with libertarian leanings left the place long ago, and the large immigrant population generally can't vote until they become citizens.

Had something like that happened elsewhere it would be cause for more alarm.

Oh, and the UN is enormously popular there. They love the idea of being told what to do by corrupt third-world bureaucrats.

The NRA is fighting this, BTW, in the courts. It's against California law.
 
I have visited the various websites that outline some of the SF foolishness.

They live in an earthquake zone and yet appear oblivous to what will one day happen.

It is incredible.

What is in their water? or air?

Tiz:confused:
 
The UN is not just an anti-gun organization. It is an anti-human-rights organization.

It's a classic example of government good intentions pushed to their logical conclusion.

...the large immigrant population generally can't vote until they become citizens.

Not legally; in all actuality, however, illegal aliens vote in large numbers in San Francisco and the rest of thePeople's Republic of California.
 
Or perhaps.... how the strict British laws are affecting violent crime.

This is from the BBC.

Violent crime 'rise' sparks row
The main parties are seeking to bolster their law and order credentials after figures showed recorded crime down, but violent crime up in England and Wales.

Overall recorded crime fell 5% in the last three months of 2004 - and violent crime for the same period rose 9%.

Tony Blair said more needed to be done to tackle violent crime, and pledged a 15% cut in overall crime by 2008.

The Lib Dems and Tories both want to tackle crime by increasing police numbers, particularly on the beat.

Controversy

The recorded crime figures, for the last three months of 2004, show firearms crimes rose 10%, mainly due to a rise in the use of imitation firearms.

There are two measures of crime... both have their limitations

They also revealed the number of domestic burglaries and vehicle thefts reported to police fell by 17% and 16% respectively.

The British Crime Survey, which Labour prefers, questions thousands of people about their experiences of crime. It suggests overall crime has fallen 11% and violent crime 10%.

The survey suggested the risk of being a victim of crime was 24%, the lowest since 1981.

Labour is planning to introduce a Violent Crime Reduction Bill if re-elected. A big aspect of the bill will be action against knives and a possible ban on replica firearms, something previously believed to be impractical.

'Huge issue'

Conservative leader Michael Howard said crime had risen 15% since 1998 and said: "What people want is not more talk from Mr Blair, they want action and that is what a Conservative government will deliver.

"More police, less paperwork, tough sentences - that's the way to bring crime under control and that's what a Conservative government will do."

Labour say crime has fallen by 30% since they came to power in 1997, and Mr Blair stressed crime-cutting plans such as increasing the number of community support officers from 4,000 to 24,000 by 2008.

Mr Blair said crime and anti-social behaviour remained a "huge issue".

"On any basis crime has fallen, yet we know for many people in local communities, it doesn't feel like that."

He said he recognised that people wanted a "visible uniformed presence - it may not always cut crime but it will certainly help cut the fear of crime".

Phone-in

The Lib Dems criticised the Labour pledge, saying the 15% reduction was to be measured against out of date figures, from which crime had already fallen 5% - and thus was only a pledge to cut crime by 10%.

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Mark Oaten said: "Labour's promises ring hollow in the light of the latest violent crime figures."

Why do you continually make my job harder by telling the general public there's more police officers than there's ever been, when for every police officer you put in rank and file on the street you've probably put another four in offices?
Boston police officer to Tony Blair on BBC Radio 5 Live

Mr Blair was lambasted on the issue on a BBC Radio Five Live phone-in by a caller who said he was a police officer from Boston.

He asked the Labour leader: "Why do you continually make my job harder by telling the general public there's more police officers than there's ever been, when for every police officer you put in rank and file on the street you've probably put another four in offices?"

Mr Blair said many officers he had spoken to saw a different picture, and said they were getting to grips with crime.

Mr Blair said Labour was using legislation on anti-social behaviour and binge drinking to help tackle crime, and was making sure children were kept away from crime by a series of after-school and other programmes.

BCS records number of incidents mentioned in interviews with public
Recorded crime is total reported offences recorded by police
Change in Home Office counting rules in 1998/9
New crime recording standard imposed in 2002

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4467569.stm

Published: 2005/04/21 15:46:47 GMT
 
cbsbyte said:
Is there any proof that crime is rising in Canada or England? Please don't quote the NRA since there infomation is not accurate.

Well, I live in Vancouver. Criminals using firearms is in the news every night. I've had a drug related double homicide on my street - 8 doors away, and I live in what is considered a good neighbourhood. Murders with handgun are way up, more that the year before they were so restricted ('97).

The UN and the Liberals have been duped by an organization named The Coalition for Gun Control and specifically a woman by the name of Wendy Cukier. She is a professor in Toronto at Ryerson (polytech) as has been paid 500K over the last 10 years or so to come up with the most biased antigun stats for the Canadian media/Liberal Government to shovel out when the opportunity happens. She was one of the key architects behind our bill C-68 (gun registration, storage laws, severe handgun restrictions) and is responsible for influencing most of the Liberals in our Federal Government to take on anti-gun initiatives.

That has been the last 10 years. We have a chance to elect a conservative government in the next 3 months. They have publicly promised to repeal the current long gun registry and implement pre C-68 laws back in order. The Liberals are on the way out because they were caught with their hands in the public cookie jar - stealing tax dollars!

What we need in Canada is a NRA. I have seen good people here do a lot for rights in Canada, but without a unified voice - we come across as a bunch of hunters and hicks. There are a lot of gun owners in Canada, and I do believe that we will have freedom of rights like yours in time.

Funny enough - the more people I talk to in Canada, the more I hear: "we would like to be able to own a gun - as they state criminals have no problems getting guns - so why shouldn't we be able to easily get one too?"

Enjoy your freedom.

Lionhill
 
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