Light strikes with Fiocchi LR primers

[Bfh_auto]

I bought 3000 of these before the last shortage started.
I got several light strikes in my wife's Marlin and blamed it on me not seating them deep enough.
This morning I had another light strike with my Weatherby.
The amount of seating force it takes to seat then would deform a CCI LR.
I think I will relegate them to my Mil-Surps.

 

[41 Mag]

I've used them in SR & SP the most of the latter. Our local GS had them a few years back for about half what everything else was so I figured WTH and picked up a half dozen or so bricks. They have all gone bang far as I recollect. I use them for 9mm the most but have also used them for the AR as well.

They might not be the absolute most accurate, but they're good enough for practice and hog fodder.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I've used them in SR & SP the most of the latter. Our local GS had them a few years back for about half what everything else was so I figured WTH and picked up a half dozen or so bricks. They have all gone bang far as I recollect. I use them for 9mm the most but have also used them for the AR as well.

They might not be the absolute most accurate, but they're good enough for practice and hog fodder.

All mine are large rifle. I'm going to take the bolt apart and make sure it isn't gummed up.
I might also try priming on the press with them instead of hand priming. But I need 100% reliability when I'm hunting.

 

[Rule3]

99.99% of the time it is not the primers fault.
How are you seating the primers?

What brass are you using? Are the pockets all nice and spiffy clean?

 

[Bfh_auto]

99.99% of the time it is not the primers fault.
How are you seating the primers?

What brass are you using? Are the pockets all nice and spiffy clean?

I use a hand prime tool and seat to a hard stop. The only brass for a 240 is Norma. Primer pockets are clean.
The primer has a tiny dent. It wasn't a seating issue. And it wasn't a primer failure.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I use a hand prime tool and seat to a hard stop. The only brass for a 240 is Norma. Primer pockets are clean.
The primer has a tiny dent. It wasn't a seating issue. And it wasn't a primer failure.

The only primers I’ve had hard seating issues with are the old (1980’s) Federal No.200. I seat them on a hand press using the Lee Ramprime. I can feel the primer hit bottom with that setup. I have found a few times it took enough force to put a ring in the primer’s face to seat fully. It doesn’t harm the primer.

 

[243winxb]

Firing pin velocity can*be slowed by old oil that has thickened. Cold weather can add to the problem.
Cleaning & storing firearms, muzzle up, allows solvent & oil to make their way into the firing pin channel.
*Edit

 

[Bfh_auto]

Firing pin velocity should not be slowed by old oil that has thickened. Cold weather can add to the problem.
Cleaning & storing firearms, muzzle up, allows solvent & oil to make their way into the firing pin channel.

It was 16 degrees out.

 

[Rule3]

I use a hand prime tool and seat to a hard stop. The only brass for a 240 is Norma. Primer pockets are clean.
The primer has a tiny dent. It wasn't a seating issue. And it wasn't a primer failure.

If it wasn't either of those, what was it? I just read it was 16 degrees. Sure that may cause an issue but seems it would do it for all of the rounds.
As in all of these threads, did you re chamber and try to fire the round? If it went off it was good bet the primer was not seated enough,

 

[243winxb]

Firing pin velocity can*be slowed by old oil that has thickened. Cold weather can add to the problem.

Edit above.

It was 16 degrees out.

That will slow thing down

 

[Bfh_auto]

If it wasn't either of those, what was it? I just read it was 16 degrees. Sure that may cause an issue but seems it would do it for all of the rounds.
As in all of these threads, did you re chamber and try to fire the round? If it went off it was good bet the primer was not seated enough,

I was trying to shoot a deer. What I meant was the firing pin didn't dent the primer enough to break the compound.

 

[Rule3]

I was trying to shoot a deer. What I meant was the firing pin didn't dent the primer enough to break the compound.

Did you try to fire that cartridge again? You still have it?

 

[Bfh_auto]

Did you try to fire that cartridge again? You still have it?

No and yes. It's deer season. I just switched rifles.

 

[wild willy]

Ever hunt in the rain?Take your bolts apart afterwards? I’ve seen some unbelievably rusted bolt inside.Rust will slow them down just like too much oil in cold weather or putting grease on them.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Ever hunt in the rain?Take your bolts apart afterwards? I’ve seen some unbelievably rusted bolt inside.Rust will slow them down just like too much oil in cold weather or putting grease on them.

Not with this rifle. I use my 35 Whelen. Which is a Handi rifle. Or my AR.
This is primarily a coyote gun. I used it for coyotes when I lived in OK. We very rarely saw below 25 degrees. So I never shot it in the cold.

 

[Slamfire]

This is always worth reading by @Hummer70

IT DON’T GO BANG-FIRES, HANGFIRES, MISFIRES AND SHORT ORDER COOKS

What @Hummer70 is showing is that ignition system design is often an afterthought with commercial rifles. I am going to tell you, Stoner did not have the slightest idea about primer sensitivity limits when he designed his AR15. It turns out that the firing pin impact energy of the first AR's was always more than the "None fire" limits. Early AR15's slamfired enough that the Army had to lighten the firing pin, and create a less sensitive, mil spec "#41" primer.

This is also worth reading:

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer

one important point I learned in this article is the importance of firmly seating the anvil, and then pushing the cup down to set the distance between anvil and cup. If the anvil is dangling in the air, the primer no go bangy. And, there has to be space between the cup and anvil or you risk cracking the primer cake. I have had lots of primers that no go bangy, some I put on a stove burner, under a cast iron skillet, and when the burner gets hot enough, everyone of those primer popped loudly. The primer cake was energetic, but I have no idea why the primer no go bangy in my guns.

One thing I would like to see, is the firing pin offset with your rifle. This is absolutely critical, as @Hummer70 mentions.

the further from the exact tip of the anvil



the more likely the primer is to misfire. And that offset is not a lot, around 0.020" is a reject limit for some.

whatever pistol this round was fired in was so badly made, the firing pin strike is way off center, and the round no go bangy.



The more you shoot, the more you learn that good mainsprings are a must, and so is also a clean firing pin channel. Firing pin protrusion will make the difference between reliable ignition and not reliable ignition. Something else, what exact cartridge were you using and how much do you set the shoulder back? Too much distance between the bolt face and case head will lead to light firing pin strikes.

One of the funny things about the shooting community is so many think they know everything there is to know about primers and ignition. When in actuality, those puffed up individuals are nothing but Confident Idiots. It is worth reading that article by David Dunning to understand that the mind is the supreme egotist and thinks it knows everything, when it actually knows nothing.

Ignition is extremely important to firearms, good ignition is not a given. I will comment, if you have Federals, use those in cold weather. Federal primers are the most sensitive primers on the market and tend to go bang with weak, and out of spec ignition systems, when other primers no go bangy.

 

[Bfh_auto]

This is always worth reading by @Hummer70

IT DON’T GO BANG-FIRES, HANGFIRES, MISFIRES AND SHORT ORDER COOKS

What @Hummer70 is showing is that ignition system design is often an afterthought with commercial rifles. I am going to tell you, Stoner did not have the slightest idea about primer sensitivity limits when he designed his AR15. It turns out that the firing pin impact energy of the first AR's was always more than the "None fire" limits. Early AR15's slamfired enough that the Army had to lighten the firing pin, and create a less sensitive, mil spec "#41" primer.

This is also worth reading:

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer

one important point I learned in this article is the importance of firmly seating the anvil, and then pushing the cup down to set the distance between anvil and cup. If the anvil is dangling in the air, the primer no go bangy. And, there has to be space between the cup and anvil or you risk cracking the primer cake. I have had lots of primers that no go bangy, some I put on a stove burner, under a cast iron skillet, and when the burner gets hot enough, everyone of those primer popped loudly. The primer cake was energetic, but I have no idea why the primer no go bangy in my guns.

One thing I would like to see, is the firing pin offset with your rifle. This is absolutely critical, as @Hummer70 mentions.

the further from the exact tip of the anvil

View attachment 1116586

the more likely the primer is to misfire. And that offset is not a lot, around 0.020" is a reject limit for some.

whatever pistol this round was fired in was so badly made, the firing pin strike is way off center, and the round no go bangy.

View attachment 1116587

The more you shoot, the more you learn that good mainsprings are a must, and so is also a clean firing pin channel. Firing pin protrusion will make the difference between reliable ignition and not reliable ignition. Something else, what exact cartridge were you using and how much do you set the shoulder back? Too much distance between the bolt face and case head will lead to light firing pin strikes.

One of the funny things about the shooting community is so many think they know everything there is to know about primers and ignition. When in actuality, those puffed up individuals are nothing but Confident Idiots. It is worth reading that article by David Dunning to understand that the mind is the supreme egotist and thinks it knows everything, when it actually knows nothing.

Ignition is extremely important to firearms, good ignition is not a given. I will comment, if you have Federals, use those in cold weather. Federal primers are the most sensitive primers on the market and tend to go bang with weak, and out of spec ignition systems, when other primers no go bangy.

I do have some Federal magnums.
The cartridge is a 240 Wby. I fire formed a round until it was hard to chamber. Then I turned the die in 1/4 turn at a time until the bolt would close. Brass was 2 dollars a piece. So I want it to live.
I have read the one article. But I haven't seen Hummer70 post before.
Today was the last day of season. So when I get the little things caught up. I'll pull my bolt apart and check it. I never measured the FP protrusion on this rifle. But I have had issues with a Mauser in the past that cleaned up when I adjusted the tip length.
In the past the only issue I've had with primers was a flat of CCI SP that I suspect was contaminated. I had about a dozen FTF. That was in the early 2000s.

 

[Slamfire]

I do have some Federal magnums.
The cartridge is a 240 Wby. I fire formed a round until it was hard to chamber. Then I turned the die in 1/4 turn at a time until the bolt would close. Brass was 2 dollars a piece. So I want it to live.
I have read the one article. But I haven't seen Hummer70 post before.
Today was the last day of season. So when I get the little things caught up. I'll pull my bolt apart and check it. I never measured the FP protrusion on this rifle. But I have had issues with a Mauser in the past that cleaned up when I adjusted the tip length.
In the past the only issue I've had with primers was a flat of CCI SP that I suspect was contaminated. I had about a dozen FTF. That was in the early 2000s.

Belted magnums are tricky to size, and it is best to have them headspacing on the shoulder instead of the belt. Given the diameter of the shoulders, I cannot imagine a 240 Wby magnum not having enough shoulder support to give good ignition.

Cold weather really tests the robustness of an ignition system.

 

[Slamfire]

Looked at my 1950's The Complete Guide to Handloading by Philip B Sharpe, Third edition, second revision, this morning.

Here with what Mr Sharpe has to say about crushed primers.

Page 284

What difference will it make if a primer is slightly crushed or otherwise mutilated? This question can be answered very definitely, since it has been tested in laboratories. A mutilated primer cups means that the priming composition cake within the cup has been broken up. This is designed to be, at all times, solidly fixed within the cup. It is inserted while wet, pressed into position, and permitted to dry there. If this cake is broken, the result is like to be a hangfire and generally faulty ignition.

I do believe that seating a primer too hard, for whatever reason, cracks the primer cake. I really don't know a good fix for a hard to seat primer, the seating of which results in a smashed primer cup. Maybe a primer pocket reamer tool, the type used to cut out military primers, will widen the cup enough that your Fiocchi primers will seat without distortion. But then the pockets won't be as tight for other brands.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Looked at my 1950's The Complete Guide to Handloading by Philip B Sharpe, Third edition, second revision, this morning.

Here with what Mr Sharpe has to say about crushed primers.

Page 284

What difference will it make if a primer is slightly crushed or otherwise mutilated? This question can be answered very definitely, since it has been tested in laboratories. A mutilated primer cups means that the priming composition cake within the cup has been broken up. This is designed to be, at all times, solidly fixed within the cup. It is inserted while wet, pressed into position, and permitted to dry there. If this cake is broken, the result is like to be a hangfire and generally faulty ignition.

I do believe that seating a primer too hard, for whatever reason, cracks the primer cake. I really don't know a good fix for a hard to seat primer, the seating of which results in a smashed primer cup. Maybe a primer pocket reamer tool, the type used to cut out military primers, will widen the cup enough that your Fiocchi primers will seat without distortion. But then the pockets won't be as tight for other brands.

There was a little miscommunication there.
The seating pressure that it took to seat the fiocchi primer would distort a regular primer. It did not distort the cup on the fiocchi. They are seated just below flush like I always seat primers.
The primers worked during sight in and worked during 30 degree weather. At 16 degrees one when click and had a light strike. The second one that fired looked like a normal fired primer.