Lil Gun Issue

[Hondo 60]

OK guys & gals.
I bought some Lil Gun a while back to make some Ruger only loads for my Blackhawk 45 Colt.

Well I sold the Blackhawk & the Lil Gun's just been sitting.

So I a wild hair up my butt & started checking for published recipes
for Lil Gun in other calibers.
According to Hodgdon's data 16-18 gr will work with a 357 mag.
with a Hornady XTP 158.

I don't have any Hornady bullets.
What I have is MBC 357 Action they're 18 BHN.
So I figured I'd keep the powder on the lower side & try it.

I loaded up three rounds with 17 gr & they snapped pretty hard.
I also noticed there was just a bit of flattening with the primer.

So, for my range time, I loaded a few with 16.7 gr.
and took along the chronograph.

They graphed at 375 fps!
I don't understand why they were so slow!
(and they snapped hard enough that I don't really want to try to
up the powder closer to the 18 gr limit.)

At 16.7 grains this still well within the published data (except that I used lead).

Any helpful, courteous, thoughts would be appreciated.
smart alec comments are not appreciated.

thanks!

 

[snuffy]

375 fps? I used to be able to run that fast! Ummmmmmmmm, I bet that was supposed to read 1375? Whats wrong with that? Plenty fast for that bullet.

 

[Hondo 60]

I shot all three & they all graphed about the same.
I thought it was wrong, so I shot some factory 38 spl.
& they graphed about 850 or so.

Then I graphed some other 357s that I made using my standard recipe & they shot about 1100 fps.

So something wasn't right.

If they really were 1375, that's great.
Then I wonder why didn't my chronograph register it?
I even replaced the battery thinking maybe that was the problem.
But my 2nd & 3rd shots were very close to the same as shot #1

 

[noylj]

Was the first screen 10-12 feet away?
Why would you START at the middle of the jacketed date with a lead bullet?
I would start 10% under the STARTING load for the jacketed bullet.
What part of "Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load" in your manual was unclear?

 

[Hondo 60]

noylj - how do your questions help answer the issue?
Do you think starting lower would produce a faster result?

If I was using 12 BHN lead - then I would've started lower.
But 18 BHN needs to be faster to obturate.
(I think I spelled that right.)

 

[gamestalker]

Jacketed and lead don't live off te same data. Is there any data that lists Lil Gun for a lead bullet? If not your frankestiening the load which is a no, no. Rethink your load and search for a listed charge using the bullets you've decided on using.

 

[buck460XVR]

375fps...I surprised you didn't stick a bullet. I quit using Lil' Gun in my revolvers for several reasons, but am curious as all 'ell to the how come of this.

 

[CraigC]

If the recoil felt right then I'd say there's something fishy with your chronographing. Perhaps you were too close? Could be some lube or other debris got in there and screwed up the readings. Your velocities should be high, not low. Because your charge is a little on the heavy side. Not really an issue in a strong enough gun. For something like a large frame Blackhawk, you cannot get enough slow burning powder in the case to hurt the gun. FYI, Hodgdon's data maxes out at 15.0gr for a 180gr Nosler.

 

[NCsmitty]

Something doesn't sound right with those numbers. A jacketed 158gr bullet should run 1500fps or thereabouts at that charge. Lil'Gun can be erosive, and you may be gas cutting your lead bullets and giving false readings over the screens. The screens need to be at least 15' away.



NCsmitty

 

[Hondo 60]

If the recoil felt right then I'd say there's something fishy with your chronographing.

I was thinking the same thing, so I changed the battery & fired off
about 60 rounds of factory ammo & my standard 357 load.

Those all chronographed exactly where I expected.

I would love to get an answer to this.
But as for now all I can do is just buy some Hornady XTPs & see if I get different results.

But that's gonna be atleast a week away.
I don't know of any place local that has 'em.
So I'm gonna have to drive 45 miles to get 'em.
(and payday is next week, so that's an issue too, considering the price of gas as well as the bullets)

 

[GooseGestapo]

I don't know what you mean by "snapping". In my world, "snapping" means it didn't fire!

First of all, Hodgon didn't recommend using Lil'Gun with lead bullets when it first came out. I tried some and didn't get good accuracy (slow, lots of variation) as there wasn't enough start pressure to get a good burn on this slow burning powder (relative to handguns).

Use a "Magnum" strength primer, a heavy crimp, and at least 17.0gr of powder. If this dosen't chrono at least 1,400fps from a 4" bbl, go back to #2400. I only use Lil'Gun in the .357mag with at least 17.0gr under a 158gr "JACKETED BULLET". I use 17.8gr because thats the closest to the max. of 18.0gr that my measure will throw. I get ~1,500fps from my 4" bbl Ruger Sec.6. You can get as much as 19.0gr of this powder in the .357mag, but over 18.0gr, the velocities will actually go down! I've gotten over 2,100fps with this load from a 20" bbl Win. M94. Accuracy has been excellent.

With a cast bullet I use 12.5gr #2400 with a NON-gaschecked bullet, and 14.5 with gaschecked bullets (Lee 150gr SWC-HPGC, and 158gr SWC-GC -casts to 163gr.). H110 will act much like Lil'Gun with a cast bullet, so I stick with #2400 or Unique for cast bullets. FWIW, 99% of my .357 shooting is with cast bullets....

Lil'Gun, like H110/Win296 don't function well in reduced charge loads. Heed Hodgdon's and Winchesters (older manuals) warnings and recommendations for these two powders.

 

[Hondo 60]

Well, I got some Hornady XTP 158s.
My chrono said 1350-1400 fps
Primers were a tiny bit flattened, but not overly so.
And the cases ejected smoothly.
No real sign of over pressure.

But I'll warn anyone thinking of using Lil Gun.
It works really well in 357 magnum with jacketed 158s at mid to upper level charges.

The lower end of the scale is as dangerous as overloading.
I recommend that you don't ever under or over load with Lil Gun.

Thanks to those of you who responded.

 

[Jefferson Herb]

lil gun

.410 shotgun,.22 Hornet,.218 Bee,first powder to exceed factory ,218 Bee.

 

[DANNY-L]

Could it be possible that a fragment of your lead bullet was in the barrel,then when you fired again it sent the fragment through the crony picking up a 375fps reading before the bullet actually got there? I don't know if it's possible or not.

 

[Walkalong]

I clocked a S&W .32 Long at over 1200 FPS yesterday.

My chrono was not liking the angle of the sun or something, as I was getting some very erratic readings. I trashed all data. The load shot well though.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Hondo 60,
Like said above, you really shouldn't use jacketed bullet data for lead bullets. Generally you need less powder to move a lead bullet down the barrel than with a jacketed bullet, sometimes considerably less.

Using a full charge meant for a jacketed bullet with lead bullets isn't safe and should be reconsidered. I'm sure you agree, safety first..

 

[7mmb]

I've loaded Lil Gun in Ruger-only 45 Colt and haven't been able to get chrono results. Too much muzzle flash. Get further away from the chrono if you can. I was shooting at a range so that wasn't an option for me. Your loads are fine, the muzzle flash is messing with the chrono.