Here's an interesting question. I own a CZ P-01 9mm in California. I have heard that the 10 round .40 mags will fit 14 rounds of 9mm. Is it legal for me to own those mags if I don't own a .40 gun? I understand that it is my ass if I ever decide to put 14 rounds of 9mm in them, but if they are "technically" 10 round magazines, can I still own them?
Listed Mag size vs Actual Mag size?
- Thread starter keeleon
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TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I think you'd be better off living with the laws of California, or moving away.
Trying to beat the system usually ends with you being inside the system.
Trying to beat the system usually ends with you being inside the system.
Outlaws
Member
You're the guy that is gonna ruin it for Cali shooters (and maybe the rest of us) when they pass a law that magazines must not fit firearms that they are not designed for.
You live in a commie state so obey the dumb laws or leave.
I never said I will be doing this, so please don't be so aggressive towards me. I am a VERY law abiding citizen. I do however disagree with some of the laws in my state, and I will use loopholes if they are available. If I ever did own one of these magazines, it would be put away somewhere and only be brought out in a SHTF, "laws don't matter any more" situation.
It really isn't much different than owning an off list lower AR-15 or AK. We ALL know they wrote those specific lists so that we couldn't have those guns, but because of the wording, until they add every manufacturer, or add the patent design number, it is legal. Likewise, I understand the "prosecution on intent", I am just curious if there are laws or cases pertaining to this specifically.
I will have done nothing illegal if I own a perfectly legal magazine. Am I any less culpable after I buy my P-06 (same gun in .40)?
It really isn't much different than owning an off list lower AR-15 or AK. We ALL know they wrote those specific lists so that we couldn't have those guns, but because of the wording, until they add every manufacturer, or add the patent design number, it is legal. Likewise, I understand the "prosecution on intent", I am just curious if there are laws or cases pertaining to this specifically.
I will have done nothing illegal if I own a perfectly legal magazine. Am I any less culpable after I buy my P-06 (same gun in .40)?
Well, I'm not aware of any specific laws, but as I said previously, it only takes 1 aggressive DA to charge you with something.
Then again, who's gonna know? I know that's not a very "high road" attitude, but in reality, unless you do something to get you caught... well, you know what I mean.
I suppose it's just a probability / risk assessment. I'd say you're 93% fine, 7% in the wrong, with +/- 3% standard deviation.
Then again, who's gonna know? I know that's not a very "high road" attitude, but in reality, unless you do something to get you caught... well, you know what I mean.
I suppose it's just a probability / risk assessment. I'd say you're 93% fine, 7% in the wrong, with +/- 3% standard deviation.
Like I said, I'm not asking if it's a good idea. I already know the answer to that, and nobody will know if I don't tell them. I just want to make sure this hasn't been brought up before. I suppose "lip/feeders" might actually be the answer here. If they are different, than that would be what makes the mags "legal". So it might work better if I switched the followers out, but then I would have a 14 round 9mm mag, and not a 10 round .40 mag. that pretty much answers my question. Thanks.
Outlaws
Member
I have a feeling the Cali laws says something along the lines of any feeding device that is capable of accepting over 10 rounds.
So on a legal point, no, owning them probably won't ever get you in trouble in the same manner as the shoelace or owning a DIAS. But the second they get loaded up you will no doubt be in the exact same boat. So why temp yourself?
Was it a shoelace that the ATF deemed could be considered a machine gun? Just watch your argument fall apart when the state of California gets their hands on your magazines loaded with more than 10 rounds of 9mm. Government stupidity and authority knows no bounds.
So on a legal point, no, owning them probably won't ever get you in trouble in the same manner as the shoelace or owning a DIAS. But the second they get loaded up you will no doubt be in the exact same boat. So why temp yourself?
Quiet
Member
This is a gray issue and really depends on your county's District Attorney.keeleon said:
As long as you do not modify the magazine in any way to be able to be used in your handgun, you can legally own any 10 round magazine in any caliber. Even for guns you do not own.
However, once you do any type of modifying (twinking mag bodies, changing mag followers, etc.) on a magazine that is marked 10 rounds but can hold more than 10 rounds in a different caliber, you are now manufacturing an illegal large-capacity magazine.
IA_farmboy
Member
How about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Company
Possession of a receiver, short (under 16") barrel, pistol grip, long (over 16") barrel, and rifle stock was ruled as not "constructive possession" of a short barreled rifle.
Possessing a magazine that holds 10 rounds of 10mm that also happens to hold 14 rounds of 9mm, and not actually owning a pistol chambered in 10mm would very likely fall outside of the law since the intent can be implied that one wishes to load the 9mm handgun with more than the legally allowed 10 rounds. I think it would be much more difficult (though certainly not out of the question) to charge one with constructive possession if one had a 10mm pistol that happened to come with a magazine capable of holding 14 rounds of 9mm and you also happened to own a 9mm handgun capable of receiving that magazine. Getting additional magazines for your "favored" 10mm would also not be out of the ordinary and shouldn't get you into any trouble.
If I were you I wouldn't get the magazine without first getting the 10mm pistol to match.
The usual disclaimer applies:
I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, salt to taste.
MisterPX
Member
You'll only get 11 rounds of 9 in that 10rnd 40 mag. Math is fun
Plus, it was done during thwe AWB with Glocks. Anyhow, wasn't very usefull, as any malfuntion induced by the mag outweighs the extra round.
Plus, it was done during thwe AWB with Glocks. Anyhow, wasn't very usefull, as any malfuntion induced by the mag outweighs the extra round.
railroader
Member
I use to shoot matches with guys that used cz75 40 cal 10 round mags in their 9mm guns and they worked(held 14 rounds of 9mm). As for possessing those mags empty, there is nothing to charge you with, they are 10 round mags. Mark
I do know several people with 9mm P01's who have successfully used the 40 magazines. MecGar (the OEM manufacturer of CZ magazines) had the 14 round (P01) magazines on backorder around Christmas of 2006. We waited it out and had or order in about 2 months.
Legal implications aside (there are none in NC), I would only consider using the "wrong magazine" at the range due to potential reliability issues.
Enjoy the P01. My wife and I each have one, along with several other CZ's (two more appeared today). They are a pretty well kept secret.
Legal implications aside (there are none in NC), I would only consider using the "wrong magazine" at the range due to potential reliability issues.
Enjoy the P01. My wife and I each have one, along with several other CZ's (two more appeared today). They are a pretty well kept secret.
I am with others in that just because the mag is supposed to be for another gun and another caliber will not be relevant in court. You own them and are using them for your pistol in 9mm. Therefore, you are using a magazine that has a capacity greater than 10 rounds and will face the penalties. I really doubt the court will care if the mags are actually 40 cal mags.
Now if you own the 40 cal pistol, that might change things. Just don't leave the mags loaded with 9mm.
Just my opinion though.
Now if you own the 40 cal pistol, that might change things. Just don't leave the mags loaded with 9mm.
Just my opinion though.
I was told that any modification to any magazine was illegal according to the "BATFE"... does anyone know if that's true or if there is any place that I can get a look at the relevant law or regulation that applies. My problem is that I live in the Stupid State of New York with a 10 Round Magazine limit. I'm getting a gun that the manufacturer doesn't make 10 round magazines for, only 15's and wanted to permanently modify the magazines to hold only 10 rounds. The gunsmith said that would break the law. I can get some aftermarket 10 rounders, but would prefer to have the factory magazines but modified to limit to 10. That's OK by New York as long as the mod is permanent and can't be 'undone'. Thoughts? Thanks.
Stoney
{oh, the gun is a Stoeger Cougar 8000 in 9mm (same as the older Bereta Cougar 8000 in 9mm)... thanks in advance.}
Stoney
{oh, the gun is a Stoeger Cougar 8000 in 9mm (same as the older Bereta Cougar 8000 in 9mm)... thanks in advance.}
Stoney, the ATF doesn't care any more. During the Federal AWB they cared to a degree. The problem for you would be bringing the 15 round mags into NY. I have seen NY dealers with new "restricted" mags in their show cases, can they modify them and sell them to you?
billwiese
Member
All mags can be misapplied and filled with wrong ammo. Sometimes they work.
Many/most 40S&W or 357Sig mags can be misapplied for 9mm. I'm sure other instances of different caliber combo exchanges exist as well, just don't have them at hand - hmm, 45ACP vs 41AE? Dunno...
As for California matters, this has been in private discussion of various bright Calgunners and informal talks w/gun lawyers. YMMV in other states.
In CA, as long as the mag is 10rds or less for the caliber for which it was designed/marked, the alternate function for the unintended caliber is a happy accident. There is no 'constructive possession' for 'accidental hicap mags' and the laws for hicap mags in CA are, in many ways, limited in scope.
There's the 'lenity' (leniency) concept where, if something can be legal or illegal according to various interpretations, the interpretation of legality must be taken. Additional layers of defense exist for handguns that were approved for sale by DOJ and were "Rostered" - that's certification by the chief LE agency in the state that the gun's legal WITH MAGAZINES (since gun has to be tested/approved as a system including magazines) and would form part of a detrimental reliance defense.
BTW, quite a few 10rd 458Socom mags have been legally imported into CA, marked as such. It appears that they serve fine as 30rd 5.56/223 mags.
Bill Wiese
San Jose CA
Many/most 40S&W or 357Sig mags can be misapplied for 9mm. I'm sure other instances of different caliber combo exchanges exist as well, just don't have them at hand - hmm, 45ACP vs 41AE? Dunno...
As for California matters, this has been in private discussion of various bright Calgunners and informal talks w/gun lawyers. YMMV in other states.
In CA, as long as the mag is 10rds or less for the caliber for which it was designed/marked, the alternate function for the unintended caliber is a happy accident. There is no 'constructive possession' for 'accidental hicap mags' and the laws for hicap mags in CA are, in many ways, limited in scope.
There's the 'lenity' (leniency) concept where, if something can be legal or illegal according to various interpretations, the interpretation of legality must be taken. Additional layers of defense exist for handguns that were approved for sale by DOJ and were "Rostered" - that's certification by the chief LE agency in the state that the gun's legal WITH MAGAZINES (since gun has to be tested/approved as a system including magazines) and would form part of a detrimental reliance defense.
BTW, quite a few 10rd 458Socom mags have been legally imported into CA, marked as such. It appears that they serve fine as 30rd 5.56/223 mags.
Bill Wiese
San Jose CA
I might use them at the range but would not want to use them in a self defense situation. During the AWB I picked up a few 11 round .40 mags for my 9mm Beretta. They hold 14 rounds of 9mm and have never failed with no modifications.
Hey! I’m arriving late on this one bt let me get in my 10c.worth anyway. 9mm and .40 aren’t even close! Now, you could change a 10mm down to a .40, (since a .40 is just a “short” 10mm) just by changing the barrel, necessary to maintain proper head spacing. But a 9mm is a totally different caliber. Pesonally, I think it would be dumb, and definitely dangerous.
Andras
Member
In Maryland, you can't order in 30 round AR magazines, 10 round Beo .50 mags are fair game though...
Going from 15 to 10 Rounders to keep NY happy...
MikeC,
Thanks, that's what I thought... though with the BATFE, it's hard to know what they'll decide to enforce and when.
As for NY, the magazines are already in NY at an FFL/Gunsmith whom I wanted to do the mod before I removed the mag from the store to my possession... he's the one who said any mag mod was ATF proscribed. Guess I'm going to have to find something from the ATF in writing to make the gunsmith happy.
Anyone know where to get a 'ruling' from the ATF?
Thanks in advance...
Stoney
{who's gonna get the county judge's opinion for the NY State perspective on things... and this is a very pro gun Judge... he has 4000 acres and closes court for Deer season!!!}
MikeC,
Thanks, that's what I thought... though with the BATFE, it's hard to know what they'll decide to enforce and when.
As for NY, the magazines are already in NY at an FFL/Gunsmith whom I wanted to do the mod before I removed the mag from the store to my possession... he's the one who said any mag mod was ATF proscribed. Guess I'm going to have to find something from the ATF in writing to make the gunsmith happy.
Anyone know where to get a 'ruling' from the ATF?
Thanks in advance...
Stoney
{who's gonna get the county judge's opinion for the NY State perspective on things... and this is a very pro gun Judge... he has 4000 acres and closes court for Deer season!!!}
Stoney, now with the Federal AWB dead ATF doesn't care about magazines or capacity. On the ATF site there was back in '94 a ruling, or something to that effect, stating that with the '94 ban expiring mags could be had as long as the state didn't restrict them. During the ban the ATF did have something about using a mag in a gun other then the firearm it was originally designed for. Again, on the Federal level it is a moot point. The county judge might help but I do think a written letter to the state AG asking for a ruling would be best.
As for a ruling from ATf, I believe you must put the question on paper and send it to the Technical Branch.
Firearms Technology Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25401
As for a ruling from ATf, I believe you must put the question on paper and send it to the Technical Branch.
Firearms Technology Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25401
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