Living in one state, buying and keeping a gun in another....

[morcey2]

Why is this illegal? Thankfully I live in Utah, which always scores near the bottom of the Brady Bunch's scorecard, but my son asked me this today. I have family that lived in California and had to abide by their draconian gun laws until a short time ago when they moved to a more gun-friendly state. My son asked me why my brother couldn't just buy a gun in Utah and leave it here? (Assume long-guns for the sake of this discussion, although handgun limitations are even worse.) Nothing ever crossed the border into California so none of their state laws were violated, but federal law says that the purchase must be legal by the laws of both states even if the gun never makes to the other state?

I can go to another state and I can buy land. It doesn't make me a resident, but anything that happens on that land must be within the bounds of the laws of the containing state, not the laws of my state of residence.

So, why the restriction on my brother buying the gun and storing it in my gun safe until he comes out to use it? I know I'm expecting a lot by applying logic to gun laws, but just call me weird.

Matt

 

[smalls]

Because of the possibility of him bringing it into his home state.

 

[Librarian]

It is against Federal law for anyone who resides in a state to transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who does not live in that same state.

If that illegal act should occur, it is further illegal for the person who got the gun to take it back to his/her state of residence.

See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate, which is where I keep my copy of what Frank reposts for this question.

 

[Scimmia]

It is against Federal law for anyone who resides in a state to transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who does not live in that same state.

True for handguns, NOT true for long guns. You are able to buy a long gun from an FFL out of state, but not from an unlicensed person. The laws of both states must be followed, so Cal law could very well prohibit it, but federal law does not.

 

[morcey2]

I understand the law but I'm trying to understand the rationale behind the law. Let's attack it from a different perspective.

Suppose I live in Washington D.C. and am therefore effectively prohibited from owning a handgun. I have a non-resident Utah concealed firearms permit which allows me to carry in a very large number of states. I can't buy a handgun outside of DC (I think. That's if DC is defined equivalent to a "state" in the law) but at this point it time, I can borrow for a handgun from my brother for a very extended period from my theoretical brother in Utah as long as I don't bring the gun to DC (or Jersey. Or New York. Or Mass) At the moment, that is theoretically legal. I think there are some potential issues with it, but nothing significant. Why not just allow out of state purchases as long as the gun doesn't travel back to the prohibited state?

Now for a twist. In [strike]the trial balloon that the administration "leaked" over the weekend[/strike] H.R. 21 introduced by Rep Moran, even temporary transfers (a.k.a. borrowing a gun) would require a background check. If I borrowed a gun as a carry gun for a trip, I would have to do a background check. The "theoretical-me" would fail the background check because I live in an area where that gun is prohibited, even if it never goes there. If I understand it correctly, that would effectively prohibit anyone from a state that prohibits handgun ownership or requires handgun registration from carrying in any state on a non-resident permit from another state.

Sounds ludicrous to me.

Matt

 

[Bubbles]

Why is it illegal? Think back to what life in America was like during the 1960's. GCA '68 had absolutely nothing to do with preventing criminals from getting firearms, and everything to do with preventing certain other groups of people from obtaining firearms.

 

[apostle83]

Exactly. It was about keeping blacks from buying in areas that would sell to them, and bringing their guns back to areas in which they were oppressed.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Why? Who really knows. On it's face the Gun Control Act of 1968 was enacted because three very popular public figures were assassinated by criminals with guns; and there was tremendous public support for a law that at least looked like it would make it harder to get guns. That the law might not have been a perfect solution is irrelevant.

And now, things are as they are, and the interstate transfer of firearms is severely restricted under federal law. Is someone wants to get active and try to change that, our system offers a number of ways to try. Since the law was enacted by Congress, it can be changed or repealed by Congress, so one could pursue a change by political process. Or if one has enough money, he can take up the question in court.

But for no the law is what it is.

 

[pseudonymity]

I want to make certain I understand what is being discussed here. As I understand it, you can buy a long gun from an FFL out of state as long as that gun meets the laws of both the FFLs and your state of residence. That being said, there is no reason I can see that you ever have to actually transport the gun back into your state of residence, correct?

Is 'why must out of state long gun purchases from FFLs comply with the laws of my state of residence' a better title for the question, or I am not understanding the law here?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...As I understand it, you can buy a long gun from an FFL out of state as long as that gun meets the laws of both the FFLs and your state of residence...

Not quite.

In the case of long guns, an FFL in a State other than the transferee's State of residence can do the transfer, BUT ONLY IF (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

In the OP's case it seems that the transferee would be a California resident.

 

[rondog]

Huh. I'd always thought long guns could be bought FTF in another state and brought home. So, I live in CO, I can't buy a rifle or shotgun from my brother or anyone else in OK and bring it home? I thought that only applied to handguns.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Huh. I'd always thought long guns could be bought FTF in another state and brought home...

Sorry, but you thought wrong. The transfer needs to go through an FFL in compliance with federal law.

...So, I live in CO, I can't buy a rifle or shotgun from my brother or anyone else in OK and bring it home?...

Nope -- not unless the transfer goes through an FFL in compliance with federal law.

...I thought that only applied to handguns.

Nope.

Here (yet again) is the whole federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Here's what the statutes say:

18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

...