Load data/info for Montanda Gold 158hr in 38 Special

[tcj]

Been reloading for a while and just picked up a GP100 (6") and a Rossi 92 Lever (24").

Loaded up some rounds using Montana Gold .38/158gr JHP in 38 special cases, S&B SPP and N-340 powder. Don't have the COAL with me but it was roll crimped into the cannelure.

Long story short, since I was doing load development I started at 4.5 grains and went to 4.9 and managed to stick bullets in the barrels of both guns.

With the Lever it was an easy removal. Unfortunately with the revolver I wasn't shooting and after the jacket stuck in the end of the barrel (the lead core didn't) the shooter kept shooting thinking he was missing. I guess he thought that since the prior 6 shots were great (I believe they were with the 4.9 gr load) there was no need to hold back...sigh. That gun is on the way back to Ruger for a new barrel and a bunch of $$$.

So, does anyone have recommended load data that would work for me?

Also, needless to say, I have a chronograph on order...never had to 'need' it before although yes I know I should have and it would have prevented this much pain.

Thanks in advance.

 

[rcmodel]

Factory N340 data suggests a 5.2 Starting load, and a 5.4 Max load with a 158 jacketed bullet.

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/vihtavouri.pdf

rc

 

[tcj]

Thanks.

What's interesting is that their current data on the web-site differs a little and I had done my load development with the Hornady book (8th edition) which had a range of 4.3-5.1.

 

[RealGun]

What's interesting is that their current data on the web-site differs a little and I had done my load development with the Hornady book (8th edition) which had a range of 4.3-5.1.

Hornady's XTP bullets are "plated" at some level, which you can tell by the copper colored base of the bullet. I'm not sure Hornady is much good for FMJ or JHP except for extrapolation. A lead/plated load will be a bit weak for a jacketed bullet, certainly in the starting range.

 

[Steve C]

Hornady's XTP bullets are "plated" at some level, which you can tell by the copper colored base of the bullet.

HUH? Hornady XTP's are constructed like conventional jacketed HP bullets using perhaps a thicker jacket. The reason the base is copper is because it is the bottom of the copper jacket "cup" that is swaged to form the bullet. Data for the XTP's should translate to any JHP bullet though recent Hornady data seems to be a bit lighter in charge weight than data from other manufacturers.

Picture from Hornady of their XTP bullet construction:



It is always a good idea to check data from several sources and the manufacturers data on line is always a good check to see if you are starting too low.

 

[RealGun]

Then whoever taught me that bullets with copper bottoms must be plated, was wrong. Sigh! I read it on the internet (here, probably).

p.s.

Thought about it and figured that in the context of FMJ, the jacket cup is upside down compared to XTP (hollow point), so the bottom is bare lead unless plated, or I suppose gas checked.

 

[Reefinmike]

Hornady's XTP bullets are "plated" at some level, which you can tell by the copper colored base of the bullet. I'm not sure Hornady is much good for FMJ or JHP except for extrapolation. A lead/plated load will be a bit weak for a jacketed bullet, certainly in the starting range.

wut? they are jacketed. speer gold dots are plated albeit very thick plating in comparison to your normal berrys rainier xtreme etc.

 

[tcj]

A couple of follow-up questions:

1) the VV pdf shows a range (38 spc) of 4.9 @ 791 fps to a max of 5.6 @ 983 fps. Opiniions/suggestions/cautions?

2) my plan was to chrono some factory 158 gr hollow-points (Remington) through each gun and then chrono loads ranging from 4.4 to 5.6 in each gun until I was close to the factory velocities...does this make sense or am I taking too much for granted given the unknown powder, bullet height,amount of crimp, et al for the factory ammo?

Thanks everyone!

 

[CraigC]

speer gold dots are plated albeit very thick plating in comparison to your normal berrys rainier xtreme etc.

Speer Gold Dots are very, very different from Rainier and Berry's. The outer jacket, while plated on, is bonded to the lead core. Which allows them to maintain their integrity while they expand. Not separate like XTP's and most conventional jacketed bullets do. The 270gr Gold Dot and 300gr JSP are much better game bullets than their XTP counterparts. Expansion being more controlled with better penetration.

 

[buck460XVR]

Thanks.

What's interesting is that their current data on the web-site differs a little and I had done my load development with the Hornady book (8th edition) which had a range of 4.3-5.1.

If you look at that velocity listed for those charges you will see they all produce 800 FPS or less. The charges you loaded show velocities of 650-750 FPS. This is just asking for a stuck bullet in a carbine. In all of my handgun carbines I always try to stay with loads that produce at least 850 FPS outta a handgun. I am not surprised at all you stuck a bullet in the carbine with those loads, but the revolver should have been okay.

 

[Walkalong]

I love N340, but it isn't a good choice in .38 Spl. It is too position sensitive at that low pressure level with too much empty space in the case.

4.9 Grs is the starting load in the Vihtavuori 2011 PDF with a Speer 158 Gr JHP, so it is no wonder why you stuck bullets.

 

[tcj]

Chrono (10 shot strings) results for my Lever (24") with the chrono set @ 10' from the muzzle:

First, I chrono'd the closest factory ammo that I could find which was Remington 158gr +P JHP; it was not crimped and was in nickel plated cases. Average velocity was 1,346 FPS.

Next, I chrono'd some of my loads all of which were with a roll crimp and the VV N340 powder as follows:
Powder Charge FPS
------------------- ----------
5.1 887
5.3 973
5.4 1,013
5.5 1,035
5.6 1,071

Accuracy was good with all of the loads (checked @ 25 & 50 yrds). What surprised me was that
the velocity was significantly less than I would have expected based upon the data from VV (which was for a 6 1/2" barrel) or any of the other sources I consulted.

When I get my revolver back (another couple of weeks) I'll chrono the same loads and post.

Also, I'm getting in some AA No.5 and will be performing load testing with that as well.

Any and all feedback would be appreciated

 

[Walkalong]

A 6 1/2" pressure barrel with no cylinder gap will give unrealistic velocities. AA #5 is very good stuff for +P .38 Spl.

 

[tcj]

So, I chron'd one of my VV N340 loads (5.4) in the revolver and it came in @ 704 fps.

I then chron'd a series of AA NO. 5 loads in both the 24" lever and the 6" revolver with the following results (lowest and highest loads tested are the only ones I'm showing):

Grains Revolver Lever
-------- ---------- -------
5.6 530 860
6.2 708 987

The loads with 6.2 of A#5 were also the most accurate in both guns.

The Accurate data shows a max load of 6.4 and I will run some add'l tests @ 6.3 & 6.4 in about a week.

Feedback, ideas, suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[rcmodel]

Hornady's XTP bullets are "plated" at some level, which you can tell by the copper colored base of the bullet.

Not plated.

Hornady XTP bullets are conventional cup & core bullets.

The base is covered because the hollow-point in the nose isn't.
Just like all conventional JHP bullets from any manufacture.

rc